Concept Of Freewill?

[Jacob's Ladder]

Doesn't God knowing our future negate the concept of freewill?

What saith the forum?

[shazeep]

i've seen this endlessly debated, and it seems to hinge upon one's understanding of freewill, and one's grasp of God's omnipotence (for the predestination part). Personally, i think it is a glimpse into something that humans only poorly grasp, and inevitably tend to have issue with--which may be the point.

Do you fell that your freewill is hindered?
Does God having predestined you to ________ change how you will act today?
And hey, i know your future, too--you are going to die someday.

If i may, the standard rhetoric goes, "If God has predestined me to something, do i have free will to change that outcome?" which is likely putting the cart before the horse; or at least ignoring the omnipotence aspect of God. imo.

[Jacob's Ladder]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i've seen this endlessly debated, and it seems to hinge upon one's understanding of freewill, and one's grasp of God's omnipotence (for the predestination part). Personally, i think it is a glimpse into something that humans only poorly grasp, and inevitably tend to have issue with--which may be the point.

Do you fell that your freewill is hindered?
Does God having predestined you to ________ change how you will act today?
And hey, i know your future, too--you are going to die someday.

If i may, the standard rhetoric goes, "If God has predestined me to something, do i have free will to change that outcome?" which is likely putting the cart before the horse; or at least ignoring the omnipotence aspect of God. imo.

It's possible for God to refrain himself from knowing our future. God has plans for us (Jer 29:11), but will only unleash his plans upon us as we're obedient.

And you don't know my future. It's possible that I will never see death!
Stop suggesting that I might see death!

[shazeep]

hmm, pardon me then, but if you will, rapture doctrine is not new, and Ezekiel spoke thus of it:

King James Bible
Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

[Aquila]

I've been on both sides of this issue during my studies. Currently, I've found what I believe to be an answer that is sufficient for me.

While God knows what decisions we will make with our free will... God isn't the one who has locked us into our destiny. He is very much the omniscient observer.

However, He has a plan of salvation for all who will choose to come to Him, the Gospel. Christ is central to this plan. Christ is predestined for glory and honor. Therefore, all who choose Christ and abide in Him will partake in that predestined glory. Christ alone is the elect, therefore all who choose and abide in Christ will partake in Christ's glorious election. Those who fail to choose Christ or to abide in Christ will fail the grace of God and forfeit their election and predestined glory.

This view is known as Corporate Election. Analogy for corporate election and predestination:

The relationship of corporate election and predestination could be compared to a ship (i.e., the church, the body of Christ) on its way to its future and final destination (i.e., conformity to the image of Christ). The ship is chosen by God to be his very own vessel. Christ is the chosen Captain and Pilot of this chosen ship. God desires that everyone would come aboard this ship and has graciously made provisions for them to do so through its Captain. Only those who place their trust in the Captain of the ship are welcomed to come on board. As long as they remain on the ship, through a living faith in the ship's Captain, they are among the elect. If they choose to abandon the ship and its Captain through unbelief, they cease to be among the elect. Election is experienced only in union with the Captain and his ship. Predestination tells us about the ship's future direction and final destination that God has prepared for those remaining on it. God, out of his immense love, invites everyone to come aboard the ship through faith in the ship's Captain, Jesus Christ.

What I like about this is that it theologically preserves both God's sovereign will and human free will as it relates to divine election. Christ is elect (chosen) and predestined for glory. We partake in that election and predestination unto salvation when we make the choice to be found in Him.

[shazeep]

Nice analogy, Aquila...seems pretty solid!

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

It's possible for God to refrain himself from knowing our future. God has plans for us (Jer 29:11), but will only unleash his plans upon us as we're obedient.

And you don't know my future. It's possible that I will never see death!
Stop suggesting that I might see death!

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

wadr

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I've been on both sides of this issue during my studies. Currently, I've found what I believe to be an answer that is sufficient for me.
While God knows what decisions we will make with our free will... God isn't the one who has locked us into our destiny. He is very much the omniscient observer.
However, He has a plan of salvation for all who will choose to come to Him, the Gospel. Christ is central to this plan. Christ is predestined for glory and honor. Therefore, all who choose Christ and abide in Him will partake in that predestined glory. Christ alone is the elect, therefore all who choose and abide in Christ will partake in Christ's glorious election. Those who fail to choose Christ or to abide in Christ will fail the grace of God and forfeit their election and predestined glory.
This view is known as Corporate Election. Analogy for corporate election and predestination:

The relationship of corporate election and predestination could be compared to a ship (i.e., the church, the body of Christ) on its way to its future and final destination (i.e., conformity to the image of Christ). The ship is chosen by God to be his very own vessel. Christ is the chosen Captain and Pilot of this chosen ship. God desires that everyone would come aboard this ship and has graciously made provisions for them to do so through its Captain. Only those who place their trust in the Captain of the ship are welcomed to come on board. As long as they remain on the ship, through a living faith in the ship's Captain, they are among the elect. If they choose to abandon the ship and its Captain through unbelief, they cease to be among the elect. Election is experienced only in union with the Captain and his ship. Predestination tells us about the ship's future direction and final destination that God has prepared for those remaining on it. God, out of his immense love, invites everyone to come aboard the ship through faith in the ship's Captain, Jesus Christ.

What I like about this is that it theologically preserves both God's sovereign will and human free will as it relates to divine election. Christ is elect (chosen) and predestined for glory. We partake in that election and predestination unto salvation when we make the choice to be found in Him.

Very well put, Beloved. My thoughts, exactly: Jesus is the predestined one, and the believers in Him.

God created vessels for honor and dishonor: yet he gave those vessels which He knew would be for dishonor every chance to be saved. Who was Judas Iscariot? Was he not numbered among the twelve? Yet...

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hijack your post/thread. But it's your fault: you got me worked up! "Did not our hearts burn within us..."

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Doesn't God knowing our future negate the concept of freewill?

What saith the forum?

No, it simply means that you have already made your choices.

[thephnxman]

[QUOTE=Jacob's Ladder;1345931]Doesn't God knowing our future negate the concept of freewill?
What saith the forum?[/QUOTEer
God certainly created man with a free will, but He also ordained some choices for man! There is no free will without choices!

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Doesn't God knowing our future negate the concept of freewill?

What saith the forum?

no. I hold to a more open view of the future but if God does know everything in the future exhaustively (which I don't believe that he does. God knows the much of the future as possibilities.) then free will and God's foreknowledge might be explained like this:

"Many have wondered how, if God knows everything we will do in the future, can we be said to have free will? After all, if we freely chose to do something other than what God foreknew, God would be wrong in what He foreknew; but since God cannot be mistaken we must do all that He foreknew we would do. Doesn’t this reduce us to mere actors, playing out the parts written for us by God? Are we puppets who have no control over our own actions? Darwinist, Robert Eberle, encapsulates this supposedly intractable problem of free agency in light of an omniscient God nicely: “Aside from his simple declarations without any foundation that he believes certain biblical stories and miracles are true, he runs into major problems. One is the claim that God knows what was, is and will be. Collins asserts that there is still free will, but fails to explain his logic for arriving at this extraordinary conclusion. Either what will be is known and fixed or it is not. An infallible god that knows what is going to happen is in conflict with the idea that there is free choice and thus a responsibility for one’s actions.”[1]

While it is true that the future is fixed because God perfectly knows all that will happen and cannot be mistaken, this does not mean He fixes the future. It does not follow that God’s foreknowledge of our future acts causes us to choose those acts anymore than my knowledge of your past actions would make me the cause of your acts. As William Lane Craig has argued, we do not do what God foreknows, but rather God foreknows what we will do. In other words, God’s foreknowledge is not the cause of our actions; our actions are the cause of God’s foreknowledge. While God’s knowledge of all future contingent acts may be chronologically prior to those acts, the acts themselves are logically prior to God’s knowledge. While God knows for certain what will happen in the future, our free choices inform the foreknowledge of which He is certain. His foreknowledge does not necessitate/determine our choices. If we would have freely chosen to do X rather than Y, God would know X for certain rather than Y. But in God’s foreknowledge He knows we will freely choose Y, and thus is certain that we will choose Y." Jason Dulle