Gender Laws Forced on Churches?

[Praxeas]

Is a church a place of public accommodation and if so – are congregations required to follow anti-discrimination laws regarding gender and sexual orientation?

That’s the issue raised by a brochure published by the Iowa Civil Rights Commission. They contend that any church that opens its doors to the public would be required to comply with sexual orientation and gender identity laws.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/...l?intcmp=hpbt3

[shazeep]

my first reaction was wow, but then i doubt many churches would admit to discriminating on that basis anyway, and many have stated anti-discrimination policies written into their charters. So hmm. Just seems like a goad, really, to force inclusion where it would not be welcome anyway.

[shazeep]

oh, i see it is about the money. ya, well thats a like a done deal. you are going to have to allow the gender challenged into your church to continue getting exempt tax treatment; enjoy the sunset.

[votivesoul]

I think by law, any place of worship, that expects outsiders to enter the building, and potentially become a member of that local assembly (presumably through the Gospel), would have to accommodate.

How else can a church reach the transgendered and homosexual, if they close their doors to them?

[Praxeas]

There is no real reason to accommodate a man with gender confusion issues to urinate in the women's bathroom nor to create a new gender neutral restroom

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

There is no real reason to accommodate a man with gender confusion issues to urinate in the women's bathroom nor to create a new gender neutral restroom

Perhaps not. But let me throw out a scenario.

An avid soulwinner from an Apostolic church, makes friends with a transgendered person at work. He or she, as the case may be, is determined to win this person to the Lord.

The soulwinner prays, interecedes, travails, and fasts, being a light and loving friend to the transgendered person.

Finally, a chance to really talk with the transgendered person comes around. They have a wonderful conversation about the Lord and His goodness. The Gospel is mentioned. An invitation to the soulwinner's church is given.

The transgendered person accepts, thinking that if this kind, warmhearted and loving person is what a true Christian is, then his/her church must be just the same.

The transgendered attends on a Sunday morning. He or she attempts to use the restroom per the gender of choice. Someone sees it, reports it to an usher, the usher tells the pastor, and the pastor tells the usher to clear the foyer and wait (or worse, go in) for the transgender to come out.

A scene is made, the usher isn't as kind, warmhearted, and loving a person as the soulwinner/coworker. Or maybe so, but is just following orders. Or maybe so, but just isn't up to speed on all the politically correct lingo, and offense is made. The transgender is:

1.) Told to leave the building for the safety of whichever gender

2.) Allowed to stay for the service, but warned that he or she must use the appropriate restroom next time, or he/she won't be welcome back

3.) Nothing is said, but the transgender person is then subtly escorted and followed by the usher for the rest of the meeting, while a quiet word is sent throughout the church so that husbands can protect wives, mothers can protect children, and etc. The transgendered person then of course, realizes what's going on, even though no one has said a thing.

If allowed, he or she stays for the rest of the service, out of courtesy for the soulwinner coworker.

Afterward, heart hardened, feeling hurt and embarrassed, the transgendered person never wants to step foot into an Apostolic Church again.

He or she closes him/herself off from the Gospel. The avid soulwinner can't make a dent.

And for what?

For straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel?

For forgetting the weightier matters of the law?

This scenario is not intended to mean that transgendered people don't need to repent, or that we should coddle them in their sin.

But the Gospel is more important than where a person relieves themselves.

Accommodation, to me, is like an olive branch that let's a transgendered person, who doesn't know his/her right hand from his/her left, who is dead in trespasses, and already condemned, know that he or she can come to a meeting without being judged, harassed, ridiculed, or whatever, and that he or she is then free to experience the presence of God, hear the Word of the Lord proclaimed and heralded, and make a choice to give his or her heart to Jesus, without restraint, and without the church interfering simply because of what restroom he or she went into before service began.

That, to me, is way more important.

[Esaias]

If the avid soulwinner has spent that much time with the confused sexual pervert, I would think they (the confused sexual pervert) would already know that Christians don't recognise gender confusion as any kind of valid behaviour.

How does a soul winner win the soul of a confused crossdresser without ever addressing the most obvious and blatant problem, up front and off the bat?

It is not 'straining out at a gnat'. A guy who wishes he were a girl, wears women's clothing, and adopts feminine mannerisms is what the Bible would call 'effeminate', who will not inherit the kingdom of God, and who are in the same general category as adulteres, fornicators, idolaters, catamites, drunkards, thieves, etc.

Is it straining out a gnat to request the drunkard not come to services drunk on Jim Beam? Is it straining out a gnat to request the serial fornicator not come to services and slip off to the prayer room with his 'significant other' to have a little 'affirmation of identity'?

No, Christians need to quit accomodating all this garbage.

Evangelism isn't about bringing someone to church, anyway. The person ought to be coming to service to be baptised because they've already heard the gospel, or they ought to have been baptised already by the 'avid soul winner'.

And this idea that people will be lost because 'church folks were mean to them' is pure poppycock. We are responsible for presenting the message of salvation from all this world's garbage and filth through the grace of Christ, but God is responsible for actually saving people.

The more we compromise and 'accomodate' the more the world just despises us, because they learn we have nothing DIFFERENT to offer them than what they've already got. I've seen it in action, it doesn't work, it doesn't produce genuine converts.

I'm not saying the confused person needs to be beat over the head during a service, but they definitely need to know about repentance and they definitely need to know that nobody in the grace of God lives such a perverted confused lifestyle.

[Esaias]

But on topic here, any state church, ie a 501(c)3 incorporated 'non profit' WILL bow the knee to Baal, or be sued into oblivion, the way things are going. And they should be. You cannot serve two masters.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Perhaps not. But let me throw out a scenario.

An avid soulwinner from an Apostolic church, makes friends with a transgendered person at work. He or she, as the case may be, is determined to win this person to the Lord.

The soulwinner prays, interecedes, travails, and fasts, being a light and loving friend to the transgendered person.

Finally, a chance to really talk with the transgendered person comes around. They have a wonderful conversation about the Lord and His goodness. The Gospel is mentioned. An invitation to the soulwinner's church is given.

The transgendered person accepts, thinking that if this kind, warmhearted and loving person is what a true Christian is, then his/her church must be just the same.

The transgendered attends on a Sunday morning. He or she attempts to use the restroom per the gender of choice. Someone sees it, reports it to an usher, the usher tells the pastor, and the pastor tells the usher to clear the foyer and wait (or worse, go in) for the transgender to come out.

A scene is made, the usher isn't as kind, warmhearted, and loving a person as the soulwinner/coworker. Or maybe so, but is just following orders. Or maybe so, but just isn't up to speed on all the politically correct lingo, and offense is made. The transgender is:

1.) Told to leave the building for the safety of whichever gender

2.) Allowed to stay for the service, but warned that he or she must use the appropriate restroom next time, or he/she won't be welcome back

3.) Nothing is said, but the transgender person is then subtly escorted and followed by the usher for the rest of the meeting, while a quiet word is sent throughout the church so that husbands can protect wives, mothers can protect children, and etc. The transgendered person then of course, realizes what's going on, even though no one has said a thing.

If allowed, he or she stays for the rest of the service, out of courtesy for the soulwinner coworker.

Afterward, heart hardened, feeling hurt and embarrassed, the transgendered person never wants to step foot into an Apostolic Church again.

He or she closes him/herself off from the Gospel. The avid soulwinner can't make a dent.

And for what?

For straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel?

For forgetting the weightier matters of the law?

This scenario is not intended to mean that transgendered people don't need to repent, or that we should coddle them in their sin.

But the Gospel is more important than where a person relieves themselves.

Accommodation, to me, is like an olive branch that let's a transgendered person, who doesn't know his/her right hand from his/her left, who is dead in trespasses, and already condemned, know that he or she can come to a meeting without being judged, harassed, ridiculed, or whatever, and that he or she is then free to experience the presence of God, hear the Word of the Lord proclaimed and heralded, and make a choice to give his or her heart to Jesus, without restraint, and without the church interfering simply because of what restroom he or she went into before service began.

That, to me, is way more important.

And in case anyone thinks I'm just being philosophical, less than two months ago, a transgendered young man, who was trying to pass as a woman, recently went to an Apostolic Church here in my state, a few hours north of me, and wrote a long testimony of how God changed his life and how the ministry and leadership of said Church helped him realize who the man is that God wants him to become, because they didn't pass judgment, or demonstration any recalcitrance toward him being there in a dress, with makeup and jewelry on.

The fellow repented of his sin, and shared it all on Facebook, with before and after pics for all to see.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If the avid soulwinner has spent that much time with the confused sexual pervert, I would think they (the confused sexual pervert) would already know that Christians don't recognise gender confusion as any kind of valid behaviour.

How does a soul winner win the soul of a confused crossdresser without ever addressing the most obvious and blatant problem, up front and off the bat?

Perhaps it was addressed, but done so with love and kindness, so that trust was engendered?

Imagine this avid soulwinner, after engendering such a trust, then says "Oh, by the way, come to church dressed like this and acting in such a way, and make sure to change your voice back when speaking...etc."

Where do you think that trust is going to go? That's right, down the drain.

There is more at stake. The internal problems a transgendered person has are bigger than any one person can handle or resolve. It is best to let God work it out.

It is not 'straining out at a gnat'. A guy who wishes he were a girl, wears women's clothing, and adopts feminine mannerisms is what the Bible would call 'effeminate', who will not inherit the kingdom of God, and who are in the same general category as adulteres, fornicators, idolaters, catamites, drunkards, thieves, etc.

Exactly so. And where do we see in the New Testament a restriction placed upon people and their sinful behavior before they've had a chance to really hear the Gospel and give it the time of day? I recall a certain Samaritan woman who was a sexual deviant but NOT a condemned sinner, not being told she had to figure out her life first before Jesus could minister to her. I recall a demoniac who ran around naked, cutting himself, howling mad, living in graveyards, getting a chance to be healed and restored by the Lord ere he was ever expected to clothe himself.

Is it straining out a gnat to request the drunkard not come to services drunk on Jim Beam? Is it straining out a gnat to request the serial fornicator not come to services and slip off to the prayer room with his 'significant other' to have a little 'affirmation of identity'?

It is an ideal, but what happens when the drunkard does show up drunk? Recently, a friend of mine, a pastor, told a story about a man who used to show up drunk to every service, back when the pastor was a young man, not really involved, but just an usher. This drunkard was tolerated in a funny, Otis from the Andy Griffith show kind of way. He committed suicide before anyone could really reach him.

An evangelist named Jonathan Maki once told a story of a church in the park service he was preaching and how there was a woman who kept coming up to where they were, then would leave for awhile, them come back, and then leave, and did this over a course of time. Finally, at the altar call, he saw her lift her hands and as she did so, her shirt sleeve fell down and he could see her arms full of track marks from whatever drug she had been injected herself with in between the various segments of the meeting.

She came to the meeting addicted and high as a kite, but God delivered her and filled her with the Holy Spirit.

No, Christians need to quit accomodating all this garbage.

If any Christian hopes to win a sinner, much in the way of sinfulness is going to be have to be accommodated, tolerated, and ignored. Jesus was constantly neck deep in sinners and their sins, nearly every day of His ministry. The only ones he ever chewed out on a regular basis were the scribes and Pharisees, who refused to accommodate or tolerate anyone, because they didn't want to get their hands dirty. Why, they wouldn't even let someone carry their mat on the Sabbath!

Jesus told a man who was bedridden and lowered through the rooftop "Your sins are forgiven you" without the story in the Gospels ever once mentioning any effort on the paralytic's part to repent or turn away from a single sin.

Evangelism isn't about bringing someone to church, anyway.The person ought to be coming to service to be baptised because they've already heard the gospel, or they ought to have been baptised already by the 'avid soul winner'.

I agree with you here. But let's face the reality of how things actually are versus how things ought to be. The vast majority of "church-goers" go to church, and invite people to their meetings. Some really teach and expound the Word first, others do not. It's a mixed bag. And instead of trying to figure out a way to improve the situation, we need to learn how to deal with the here and now. And the here and now is, most people are brought to church, not ready to be baptized or because they've already been baptized, but because someone merely invited them as a friend.

We can't always have it the way it ought to be.

And this idea that people will be lost because 'church folks were mean to them' is pure poppycock. We are responsible for presenting the message of salvation from all this world's garbage and filth through the grace of Christ, but God is responsible for actually saving people.

So, a "bruised reed he shall not break and smoking flax shall he not quench" means nothing? Give offense in nothing means nothing? Let not the ministry be reproached means nothing? Acts 24:16 means nothing?

If you don't think a person can become so offended and hurt by a Christian, and so, become completely incensed at the idea of God/Jesus/Church, you're living on some other planet. Spiritual abuse is real.

Take a look at the Westboro Baptist group. You and me know they are frauds and aren't the real thing. But much of the world doesn't differentiate between them and another group of Christians. So when Westboro shows up and holds signs that read "God hates fags" at the funerals of a various homosexuals who were recently killed, you're telling me that a whole bunch of people related to the deceased are all just going to turn a blind eye to it all and not lump them in with all the other, as they perceive and understand it, hate spewing Christians in this country?

The more we compromise and 'accomodate' the more the world just despises us, because they learn we have nothing DIFFERENT to offer them than what they've already got. I've seen it in action, it doesn't work, it doesn't produce genuine converts.

Who said anything about compromise? The issue is accommodating someone's ability to relieve their bodily waste, not sublimating Biblical doctrines and mandates. And besides, the world doesn't despise us because they think we've got nothing different to offer, it's because the stuff we're offering, or rather, THE WAY we offer, is, to them, hurtful, even reprehensible.

Ever sit with a homosexual for an hour and half and talk about God, and see him weep as you share your testimony of how the Lord saved you, and have him admit that to you only would he ever say he actually believed in God, but to everyone else, he lies and tells them he doesn't believe at all?

Or, ever have a lesbian sitting in her wheelchair tell you that her father, a Holy Spirit-filled pastor, told her the reason God refused to heal her is because she was gay (even though she was born with spina bifada, and that God could have healed her at anytime before she embraced a homosexual lifestyle)?

Ever pray with a young man whose stepfather made him watch pornography from the time he was five years old, and so, was so messed up in every conceivable way, he could barely help becoming the effeminate homosexual he became?

I don't know. Maybe you need to get out more.

I'm not saying the confused person needs to be beat over the head during a service, but they definitely need to know about repentance and they definitely need to know that nobody in the grace of God lives such a perverted confused lifestyle.

Sure, they need to know those things. But guess what? Timing is everything. There aren't enough people sensitive to the Holy Spirit enough to really know when to and when not to, address those issues. Bruised reeds and smoking flax, remember?

And faced with an "in the moment" moment, many people, especially as it pertains to accommodating or refusing to accommodate a transgendered person and their restroom needs, will not be able to restrain themselves and be sensitive to the Holy Spirit enough to not ruin the witness.

I mean, when all of this stuff blew up a couple of months ago, on Facebook, I was seeing licensed Oneness preachers, men of God posting stuff about how, if they see a man enter a woman's restroom while their wives were in there, they would beat that man down, to "protect" their wives, naturally.

I've never seen so many people in the Apostolic Church become absolutely rabid over this issue.

Pornography use rampant among Apostolic men, even ministers, and we create a private ministry, a so-called place of refuge, where men can talk to other men about their sins, instead of repenting of them and forsaking them like the Bible orders, but otherwise barely anyone says anything.

PK's and other youth in the church fornicating with each other, and it barely gets addressed.

Wives defrauding their husbands and not submitting to them, as unto the Lord, and, you know, it's not really for the church to say anything.

But oh my, there's a transgender in the opposite gender bathroom at church! Quick, call to arms! We have to take a stand and stop compromising and accommodating these perverts!

Give me a break. The Apostolic Church in this country has been compromising and accommodating perverts for a very long time. It's just that the perverts in question have been the "acceptable" perverts. But be homosexual or transgender, and suddenly, a line has been crossed. What hypocrisy!