Tulsa Report Day 2

[NW Pastor]

Why did you have to? I was also in California for years, and there is indeed much diversity. But what were the drastic changes? What was so bad that caused the separation. Was it "holiness" issues or otherwise? Also, although no one was excluded, was everyone included?

I have been in the "holiness" churches and found the youth much like the others. Rambunctious, fun loving, and very imperfect. It's the nature of the beast.

Originally Posted by jrLA

The thing that really bugs me is that these men are very crafty speakers. I feel that a bill of goods has been sold to those in attendance. There is NOTHING right about division....

This buisiness of co-existing....what are these people thinking. It is a very sad day! I grieve in my spirit over this.

But.....Life does go on and so does the work of God. THe job will be as it has always been, get to work reaping the harvest! Bro. Tenney say...Keep the main thing the main thing! I intend on it!

With all due respect, jrLA, you weren't there to feel the Spirit of God or the kindness these men operated with. The guideline was laid down in the very beginning with an open "If your here to attack the UPC you might as well leave now" expression.

EVERYONE I've spoken to were (a) relieved that it was NOT allowed to be a 'bash UPC' meeting and (b) blessed by the 'no pressure to break ties' atmosphere that was there.

Those are great men and, trust me, I know each of the coordinators personally and they are well able to speak exactly what they feel and believe... even if it hurts you to hear it. They had a great spirit and I'm glad they conducted themselves with more dignity than some of the forum posters have shown towards their efforts.

In closing, I've watched you and seen your postings. I genuinely think you're a sincere individual. I also think that you would have found a kindred sincerity there. Don't believe everything you hear on these forums!

[George]

Originally Posted by NW Pastor

I am not as interested in what is said as what is done. The Tulsa 6 have told brethren they do not have to leave the UPC to be a part of this new "fellowship" which will allow them to form a competing organization within an organization complete with a foreign missions, home missions, youth, education, SS, and ladies department, and even bible quizzing. They can fellowship each other and ostracize the rest of the UPCI.

Again, why stay UPC? There will be no end to the friction as the two camps drift apart fellowship less and disagree more.

A house divided against itself cannot stand. How the leaders think we can peacefully co-exist is beyond me. It will not happen. There will be a new organization completely separate from the UPCI in time. It does't even take a prophet to predict it.

So again, I don't care as much about what is said in the pulpit by the master orators of the Tulsa 6. The are careful word crafters. What will be the results of the decisions that are made?

Dora said it well on another thread - something to this effect.
If they straddle the fence very long they will get mighty sore.

[connielori]

Originally Posted by NW Pastor

Why did you have to? I was also in California for years, and there is indeed much diversity. But what were the drastic changes? What was so bad that caused the separation. Was it "holiness" issues or otherwise?

I have been in the "holiness" churches and found the youth much like the others. Rambunctious, fun loving, and very imperfect. It's the nature of the beast.

I really would rather not get into the details. (I really don't want to be taken wrong. Or sound like I'm mud slinging.) What I would like to emphasize is that no one was ever excluded. Most people just feel more comfortable being around others that are more like them. I love everyone, and want everyone to be saved. But I have to seek out my own salvation with fear and trembling. We are very humbly trying to do that.

[jrLA]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

With all due respect, jrLA, you weren't there to feel the Spirit of God or the kindness these men operated with. The guideline was laid down in the very beginning with an open "If your here to attack the UPC you might as well leave now" expression.

EVERYONE I've spoken to were (a) relieved that it was NOT allowed to be a 'bash UPC' meeting and (b) blessed by the 'no pressure to break ties' atmosphere that was there.

Those are great men and, trust me, I know each of the coordinators personally and they are well able to speak exactly what they feel and believe... even if it hurts you to hear it. They had a great spirit and I'm glad they conducted themselves with more dignity than some of the forum posters have shown towards their efforts.

In closing, I've watched you and seen your postings. I genuinely think you're a sincere individual. I also think that you would have found a kindred sincerity there. Don't believe everything you hear on these forums!

First of all, thanks for the respect. I am very pleased that these men conducted themselves in a Godly manner. I am pleased that there was a good spirit and that they condoned no UPC bashing and that they made that clear. My worry or feelings of concern is in the fact that the very action seems so rediculous to me, to find a "perferred direction". We are the church and God does not glory in our finding our own way of doing things but in coming together to do things. He is pleased for men to dwell together in unity, not to be headed in different directions.

By in large, fundamentaly, we all believe the same thing. It just seem less than right to not be able to come together to accomplish this endtime push for revival.

I've watched several of these men all of my life. I have admired their stand for God and leadership. I am just dissapointed this has happened.

I am not crying, I am dissappointed! I think things could have been different.

Yes, I am sincere, but NO you would not find me in the Tulsa crowd. I Don't believe so!

By the way, steadfast....I amire your posts....usually!

[embonpoint]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Don't believe everything you hear on these forums!

What a concept!! Are you sure this isn't a little heretical???

Actually good advice for us all.

Originally Posted by NW Pastor

I grieve for the loss of great men in our midst. However, we have already lost them. James said that men went out from us because they were not of us.

Many of the men at Tulsa have already formed associations that shut out others in the organization, even to the extent of sponsoring alternate youth camps and such like.

As dissapointed as I am about the loss of community, I have this vain wish that the men in leadership of the WPF be forthcoming about their intentions.

They will be out in time, because they have already left in the heart.

Originally Posted by connielori

I am from California, and can tell you first hand....*I refuse to go into details, (don't agree w/mud slinging) but we are ones that have looked for other alternatives. Not to shut anyone out....no one was excluded. Just HAD to. Drastic changes caused it.

Originally Posted by NW Pastor

Why did you have to? I was also in California for years, and there is indeed much diversity. But what were the drastic changes? What was so bad that caused the separation. Was it "holiness" issues or otherwise? Also, although no one was excluded, was everyone included?

I have been in the "holiness" churches and found the youth much like the others. Rambunctious, fun loving, and very imperfect. It's the nature of the beast.

Friends... I can attest to the fact that some issues are almost pushing some of these brethren into these actions. Let me tell you how I see it from my perspective.

I preach a lot of these meetings (I already have over 30 meetings lined up this year while Pastoring a great revival Church). I know how heartbreaking it is to go to an 'Apostolic Pentecostal' meeting and see things that I've spent a lot of time preaching and teaching my people the dangers of.

I'm not a 'clothesline' preacher but a 'commitment' preacher without a doubt. I think that really living for God takes some spiritual disciplines. When I came to my Church there was less than 50 people. Today there are many times over that. The VAST MAJORITY of them are people I've won to the Lord either personally or through the ministry of our Church.

I've seen them go from drunkards, whores, prostitutes, spouse abusers, drug addicts and pushers to every other sad walk of life into absolutely wonderful Saints that you would NEVER imagine lived the life some of them lived.

I was the 'husbandman'.
I was the 'shepherd'.
I was the 'keeper of the vineyard'.
I was the 'friend of the bridegroom'.
I was the 'Man of God'.

I wept with them until the victory.
I rejoiced with them over clean drug tests.
I shouted with them over salvaged marriages.
I cried with them over the consequences of past sins.
I prayed with them over bitter heartaches.
I encouraged them through vicious temptations.

I SAW THEM COME OUT VICTORIOUS!

And yet when I take them to certain meetings (I still DO take them, however) I'm always amazed at the number of people who say, "Pastor, I thought Pentecostals didn't.... I thought everyone who had truth stopped..." on and on I could go. We most always have 'new converts' that find themselves confused by these things.

Yet, I've seen young people walk out of my Church to shack up with young men in other so called 'Apostolic' Churches... without ever 'backsliding'!

I've seen them start dating young people from other so called 'Apostolic' Churches and suddenly start questioning whether Baptism in Jesus Name is really all that important. "That Pastor says it's just a sign that doesn't mean all that much."

I've seen them okay 'social drinking' in other 'Apostolic' environments and when my Saints go to their family's home (who go to the 'social drinking' Church) they get to sit there with their children and watch folks from the other 'church' drink alcoholic beverages.

Here is where I stand: I'm not for separating families. That's dumb. I am, however, for maintaining a good, clean, Godly fellowship with other Pentecostal Churches who have true Apostolic values and disciplines of the heart.

I won these folks. Why in the Name of God wouldn't I want to protect them?!?!?

And if I can do it in such a way that I can have Godly fellowship with strong Churches while maintaining civility with others who don't see everything 'eye to eye' with me... why wouldn't I want to do it?

I understand the longing for fellowship that doesn't create unholy questions in the minds of people I bled for.

[lad]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Friends... I can attest to the fact that some issues are almost pushing some of these brethren into these actions. Let me tell you how I see it from my perspective.

I preach a lot of these meetings (I already have over 30 meetings lined up this year while Pastoring a great revival Church). I know how heartbreaking it is to go to an 'Apostolic Pentecostal' meeting and see things that I've spent a lot of time preaching and teaching my people the dangers of.

I'm not a 'clothesline' preacher but a 'commitment' preacher without a doubt. I think that really living for God takes some spiritual disciplines. When I came to my Church there was less than 50 people. Today there are many times over that. The VAST MAJORITY of them are people I've won to the Lord either personally or through the ministry of our Church.

I've seen them go from drunkards, whores, prostitutes, spouse abusers, drug addicts and pushers to every other sad walk of life into absolutely wonderful Saints that you would NEVER imagine lived the life some of them lived.

I was the 'husbandman'.
I was the 'Shepherd'.
I was the 'keeper of the vineyard'.
I was the 'friend of the bridegroom'.
I was the 'Man of God'.

I wept with them until the victory.
I rejoiced with them over clean drug tests.
I shouted with them over salvaged marriages.
I cried with them over the consequences of past sins.
I prayed with them over bitter heartaches.
I encouraged them through vicious temptations.

I SAW THEM COME OUT VICTORIOUS!

....shouldn't that be a lowercase "s"..... (shepherd) since He is the Shepherd.

lol - just remembering your previous posts...

Great post by the way!

Originally Posted by jrLA

My worry or feelings of concern is in the fact that the very action seems so rediculous to me, to find a "perferred direction". We are the church and God does not glory in our finding our own way of doing things but in coming together to do things. He is pleased for men to dwell together in unity, not to be headed in different directions.

Yes... "How good and pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!"... but what do you do when can't 'dwell together'?

The same Bible that says that also said, "How can two walk together except the agree?" jrLA, there are times that unity is NOT pleasing to God! You seem to imply that these men should overlook what they are actually convicted by God about for the sole purpose of 'unity'. Is that really what it takes to please God?

Their 'breaking point' may be advertising on television... yours and mine are probably somewhere else. However, the principle remains the same; if you've read my prior post you need to answer the question for me...

Should I take my Church to 'fellowship meetings' with a Church that casually drinks... for the sake of 'unity'?

Should I take my Church to fellowship with people who believe that trinity mode baptism in the titles is as good as Jesus Name baptism because it's just a 'sign that doesn't mean much'... all for the sake of unity?

Unity is a great thing. Unity at the cost of sacrificing genuine convictions is not pleasing to God.

I respect the men who left. They are living by their convictions. I intend to live by mine. But I won't put a price tag on my calling to protect my Saints just for the sake of 'unity'.

Originally Posted by lad

....shouldn't that be a lowercase "s"..... (shepherd) since He is the Shepherd.

lol - just remembering your previous posts...

Great post by the way!

Duly noted.