Tulsa Report Day 2

[Hoovie]

I would like to sup with a few brethren over All-you-can-Eat Lobster Tails, ( http://www.bransonsbestrestaurant.co...ersnappers.php ) and we'll discuss the sin and debauchery of the world.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by pelathais

With respect, whenever I hear something like this I find that the "drastic changes" never even happened. Maybe you are sincere, but this just strikes me as the kind of "competitive holiness" that is so insidious.

This sounds like Steadfast's accusation about "UPC" homosexuals "shacking up without ever even backsliding." Didn't happen. Pure and simple.
In fact, the only instance of tolerating homosexuality within the UPC that I ever knew to exist involved an on-again-off-again "Tulsa Coordinator."

Once again we see the Tulsa apologists and their "great spirit" and just how they take the "high road." Innuedo, half-truths and outright fabrications.

They did this after Youth Congress and they did this after General Conference. Just because they managed to forgo the constant character assassination for a few hours last week they want us to believe their rant about their "pure motives" and "right spirit."

Is it within the rules to call another poster a liar these days?

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by RevBuddy

Somebody got skewered in a sore spot... oh, my my!!

Let someone call you a liar unjustly and see if it skewers you.

Some of us take out integrity seriously.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Tina

Just one question about the above post...Are you calling Steadfast a liar?

I don't see how there could be any question about that.

Of course he did.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by RevBuddy

I rest my case...oh, yes...maybe you can find an even larger font...

What I meant was...let's get off the "what he said stuff" and discuss the bigger issue of the ramifications of the WPF versus UPCI split...I'll start first...here's why I say it is a control-driven event...

1. Being unable to "control" the outcome of the GC voting, they needed an outlet to "control" their environment, i.e., form a new fellows.., I'm sorry, a new organization that will assist in "controlling" the issue, thereby its overall impact on them and their fellowship buddies.

2. Having said that, I believe that it is ALSO a "control" issue for those on the majority vote side. In the aftermath of the vote, they seek to "control" the hearts and minds of their constituency at large...those beyond the immediate influence of the "Tulsa 6."

So I think I'm being fair here to both sides...it is clearly a control issue for both. I'll even give you the point that I could have stated that upfront in the discussion.

Riiiiiiiiiight...let's just ignore the fact that Pelathais blithely called a respected poster a liar and just discuss issues.

It is remarkable that Pelathais has such vast knowledge of the Apostolic movement that he can confirm or deny everything that did or didn't happen.

Beautiful. Just beautiful.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Yes, and that folksy little adage works both ways.

PP old Compadre, I didn't limit that "folksy little adage" to just one side of the proverbial fence.

I just posted a "folksy little adage."

How cool is that?

I had no idea I could do such a thing.

[Coonskinner]

Maybe I should add "Honorable purveyor of folksy little adages" to my signature line.

[Maple Leaf]

Originally Posted by pelathais

This sounds like Steadfast's accusation about "UPC" homosexuals "shacking up without ever even backsliding." Didn't happen. Pure and simple.

Here is Steadfast's original post.

Steadfast may be a misguided standard keeping conservative, but:

- he didn't say anything about homsexuals shacking up, and

- he didn't say anything about UPC anythings shacking up.

If Steadfast said it happened, I believe it happened.

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Friends... I can attest to the fact that some issues are almost pushing some of these brethren into these actions. Let me tell you how I see it from my perspective.

I preach a lot of these meetings (I already have over 30 meetings lined up this year while Pastoring a great revival Church). I know how heartbreaking it is to go to an 'Apostolic Pentecostal' meeting and see things that I've spent a lot of time preaching and teaching my people the dangers of.

I'm not a 'clothesline' preacher but a 'commitment' preacher without a doubt. I think that really living for God takes some spiritual disciplines. When I came to my Church there was less than 50 people. Today there are many times over that. The VAST MAJORITY of them are people I've won to the Lord either personally or through the ministry of our Church.

I've seen them go from drunkards, whores, prostitutes, spouse abusers, drug addicts and pushers to every other sad walk of life into absolutely wonderful Saints that you would NEVER imagine lived the life some of them lived.

I was the 'husbandman'.
I was the 'shepherd'.
I was the 'keeper of the vineyard'.
I was the 'friend of the bridegroom'.
I was the 'Man of God'.

I wept with them until the victory.
I rejoiced with them over clean drug tests.
I shouted with them over salvaged marriages.
I cried with them over the consequences of past sins.
I prayed with them over bitter heartaches.
I encouraged them through vicious temptations.

I SAW THEM COME OUT VICTORIOUS!

And yet when I take them to certain meetings (I still DO take them, however) I'm always amazed at the number of people who say, "Pastor, I thought Pentecostals didn't.... I thought everyone who had truth stopped..." on and on I could go. We most always have 'new converts' that find themselves confused by these things.

Yet, I've seen young people walk out of my Church to shack up with young men in other so called 'Apostolic' Churches... without ever 'backsliding'!

I've seen them start dating young people from other so called 'Apostolic' Churches and suddenly start questioning whether Baptism in Jesus Name is really all that important. "That Pastor says it's just a sign that doesn't mean all that much."

I've seen them okay 'social drinking' in other 'Apostolic' environments and when my Saints go to their family's home (who go to the 'social drinking' Church) they get to sit there with their children and watch folks from the other 'church' drink alcoholic beverages.

Here is where I stand: I'm not for separating families. That's dumb. I am, however, for maintaining a good, clean, Godly fellowship with other Pentecostal Churches who have true Apostolic values and disciplines of the heart.

I won these folks. Why in the Name of God wouldn't I want to protect them?!?!?

And if I can do it in such a way that I can have Godly fellowship with strong Churches while maintaining civility with others who don't see everything 'eye to eye' with me... why wouldn't I want to do it?

I understand the longing for fellowship that doesn't create unholy questions in the minds of people I bled for.

[Coonskinner]

I am with Maple.

(Well, not the misguided part, but you know what I mean. )

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

I am with Maple.

(Well, not the misguided part, but you know what I mean. )