Tulsa Report Day 2

[pelathais]

I appreciate the reports but I have to agree with NW Pastor. Actions speak louder than words.

One thing that speaks loudly to me as well are the words that are said when people think no one else is listening. For most of my life in the UPC I sat and listened to some of the brothers who were at Tulsa as they said some of the most hateful things against their own brothers. Someone mentioned the recent "letter writers" and "how wrong they were..."

I remember one of those "letter writers" being mocked and cruelly belittled with some of the angriest and nastiest venom when I was being recruited to go to P.S.R. "It's the premier 'conservative' Apostolic conference..." they boasted. And then the discussion turned because of a book that was seen sitting out- a book by a particular author who had just started a home missions church in Texas.

That writer was called a "saint stealer" for accepting his own mother-in-law into his new church. And these guys don't want to split up families? The man who was speaking to us grew red in the face and raised his voice and bitterly denounced the brother. His own wife was trying to physically restrain his rage whenever that author's name came up. The hatred was livid. And make no mistake about it, it was hate.

And you know what? When pressed, that man confessed that he had never yet personally met the brother he was so angrily denouncing. He was just reciting the bile that had been regurgitated to him by others. That was my invitation to P.S.R. many years ago. And now many of the same cast of characters come forth, this time with meeker words. But is it the same spirit? Everyone seems to be trying a little too hard to convince themselves of something here.

1 John 4:20-21: "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also."

And the complaints about "changes" and "loss of standards?" Every time I ask about that people end up ducking behind the bush or running out of the room. Most of those complaints are like the "fog machines" at Youth Conference - they simply never existed. What we are dealing with is the long standing emnity and hatred that has so characterized our movement. And to be fair, the Baptists and and many other groups are just as bad, if not worse.

The last thing that W.T. Witherspoon said about his former PAJC fellowship concerned the "great spiritual struggle and the division among the brethren." Some of the first words he published as a new minister in the UPC were, "... as the falling away increases and men allow themselves to be possessed with a spirit of leadership and betrayal of their brethren, it is more and more necessary that we that we stand for the right."

Here's a question for you folks- have you ever been punched in the face by a brother in the Lord? Personally I've been physically attacked in churches. Anyone else? And I don't mean by a "sinner." I mean attacked by a Jesus name baptized, Holy Ghost filled - tongue talking saint of God and another time by a preacher. Have you ever had a brother or sister scream and curse at you? I've seen ministers swear like sailors, they were so angry at another preacher.

There's a lot of hate bottled up in our movement. Hate for one another. I remember seeing a friend loose $10,000's of dollars because a couple of other preachers got the board to rule against him in a matter. "That's it! We got rid of him now!" There was palapable glee.

But no, the man loved the UPC fellowship so much that he just stood there and waved "good-bye" to all that money while he kept his integrity and stayed in the fellowship. And now the men who robbed him are out. Go figure.

[OfInterest]

Pelathais, what terrible experiences you have had. I hope you have found some sort of healing. I will pray for you. This man that you speak of..I don't believe he is truly a disciple of Jesus Christ according to John 13:35.

35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

This is how the world will know if we are truly disciples of Christ. All this other "hogwash" will still be hogwash. Hopefully the man in question has repented. God's grace is great enough for all of us.

I too have seen men who deemed themselves spiritual giants, act in immoral and unethical ways. It is so disheartening, disappointing, and can be depressing. We have to keep our focus on Jesus Christ and what He did for us and leave the rest of it to God. Truly, organizations are mostly for the birds. The local church is what really matters. Being accountable to the body of Christ where you are. If most of these folks spent a tenth of the time, money, and energy going to the plethora of conferences that now exist..(which is a joke)...if they spent that time ministering to the lost and hurting in their own community, and caring for those in their own church, they would not feel the need to go get refreshed at yet another conference. Things would be so exciting around their local church that "yet another conference" wouldn't have so much appeal.

That is my two cents anyway.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I appreciate the reports but I have to agree with NW Pastor. Actions speak louder than words.

One thing that speaks loudly to me as well are the words that are said when people think no one else is listening. For most of my life in the UPC I sat and listened to some of the brothers who were at Tulsa as they said some of the most hateful things against their own brothers. Someone mentioned the recent "letter writers" and "how wrong they were..."

I remember one of those "letter writers" being mocked and cruelly belittled with some of the angriest and nastiest venom when I was being recruited to go to P.S.R. "It's the premier 'conservative' Apostolic conference..." they boasted. And then the discussion turned because of a book that was seen sitting out- a book by a particular author who had just started a home missions church in Texas.

That writer was called a "saint stealer" for accepting his own mother-in-law into his new church. And these guys don't want to split up families? The man who was speaking to us grew red in the face and raised his voice and bitterly denounced the brother. His own wife was trying to physically restrain his rage whenever that author's name came up. The hatred was livid. And make no mistake about it, it was hate.

And you know what? When pressed, that man confessed that he had never yet personally met the brother he was so angrily denouncing. He was just reciting the bile that had been regurgitated to him by others. That was my invitation to P.S.R. many years ago. And now many of the same cast of characters come forth, this time with meeker words. But is it the same spirit? Everyone seems to be trying a little too hard to convince themselves of something here.

1 John 4:20-21: "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also."

And the complaints about "changes" and "loss of standards?" Every time I ask about that people end up ducking behind the bush or running out of the room. Most of those complaints are like the "fog machines" at Youth Conference - they simply never existed. What we are dealing with is the long standing emnity and hatred that has so characterized our movement. And to be fair, the Baptists and and many other groups are just as bad, if not worse.

The last thing that W.T. Witherspoon said about his former PAJC fellowship concerned the "great spiritual struggle and the division among the brethren." Some of the first words he published as a new minister in the UPC were, "... as the falling away increases and men allow themselves to be possessed with a spirit of leadership and betrayal of their brethren, it is more and more necessary that we that we stand for the right."

Here's a question for you folks- have you ever been punched in the face by a brother in the Lord? Personally I've been physically attacked in churches. Anyone else? And I don't mean by a "sinner." I mean attacked by a Jesus name baptized, Holy Ghost filled - tongue talking saint of God and another time by a preacher. Have you ever had a brother or sister scream and curse at you? I've seen ministers swear like sailors, they were so angry at another preacher.

There's a lot of hate bottled up in our movement. Hate for one another. I remember seeing a friend loose $10,000's of dollars because a couple of other preachers got the board to rule against him in a matter. "That's it! We got rid of him now!" There was palapable glee.

But no, the man loved the UPC fellowship so much that he just stood there and waved "good-bye" to all that money while he kept his integrity and stayed in the fellowship. And now the men who robbed him are out. Go figure.

WOW........You've been through, and seen a lot, haven't you?

No, I've never seen anything remotely like you've described. And I've been in the church fifty years. I've seen disgruntled people, but nothing like that.

How terrible for you........God bless and keep you.

[oletime]

yes that is sis wendell ,she has spoken in our church many times, i told her once she has the second most famous apostolic hairdo [next to j hugh rose ] she laughed and said i was a mess , i guess that must be louisianaan speak ! LOL .a great lady the one and only mother of the ethiopian church ! great missionary from the 60"s , even though the goverment of haile salasi forced all the missionaries to leave after her and her husbands first term, the work is still very strong and thriving ! GOD BLESS HER !

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I appreciate the reports but I have to agree with NW Pastor. Actions speak louder than words.

One thing that speaks loudly to me as well are the words that are said when people think no one else is listening. For most of my life in the UPC I sat and listened to some of the brothers who were at Tulsa as they said some of the most hateful things against their own brothers. Someone mentioned the recent "letter writers" and "how wrong they were..."

I remember one of those "letter writers" being mocked and cruelly belittled with some of the angriest and nastiest venom when I was being recruited to go to P.S.R. "It's the premier 'conservative' Apostolic conference..." they boasted. And then the discussion turned because of a book that was seen sitting out- a book by a particular author who had just started a home missions church in Texas.

That writer was called a "saint stealer" for accepting his own mother-in-law into his new church. And these guys don't want to split up families? The man who was speaking to us grew red in the face and raised his voice and bitterly denounced the brother. His own wife was trying to physically restrain his rage whenever that author's name came up. The hatred was livid. And make no mistake about it, it was hate.

And you know what? When pressed, that man confessed that he had never yet personally met the brother he was so angrily denouncing. He was just reciting the bile that had been regurgitated to him by others. That was my invitation to P.S.R. many years ago. And now many of the same cast of characters come forth, this time with meeker words. But is it the same spirit? Everyone seems to be trying a little too hard to convince themselves of something here.

1 John 4:20-21: "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also."

And the complaints about "changes" and "loss of standards?" Every time I ask about that people end up ducking behind the bush or running out of the room. Most of those complaints are like the "fog machines" at Youth Conference - they simply never existed. What we are dealing with is the long standing emnity and hatred that has so characterized our movement. And to be fair, the Baptists and and many other groups are just as bad, if not worse.

The last thing that W.T. Witherspoon said about his former PAJC fellowship concerned the "great spiritual struggle and the division among the brethren." Some of the first words he published as a new minister in the UPC were, "... as the falling away increases and men allow themselves to be possessed with a spirit of leadership and betrayal of their brethren, it is more and more necessary that we that we stand for the right."

Here's a question for you folks- have you ever been punched in the face by a brother in the Lord? Personally I've been physically attacked in churches. Anyone else? And I don't mean by a "sinner." I mean attacked by a Jesus name baptized, Holy Ghost filled - tongue talking saint of God and another time by a preacher. Have you ever had a brother or sister scream and curse at you? I've seen ministers swear like sailors, they were so angry at another preacher.

There's a lot of hate bottled up in our movement. Hate for one another. I remember seeing a friend loose $10,000's of dollars because a couple of other preachers got the board to rule against him in a matter. "That's it! We got rid of him now!" There was palapable glee.

But no, the man loved the UPC fellowship so much that he just stood there and waved "good-bye" to all that money while he kept his integrity and stayed in the fellowship. And now the men who robbed him are out. Go figure.

Do you recieve any comfort in knowing that the Judge of all the earth sees and knows these things? And there is nothing hid which will not be one day revealed and brought to the light? We reap what we sow....this is the patience of the saints.

[ChicagoPastor]

Originally Posted by PocatelloApostolic

Not yet? I want to see what will happen at Branson!

So it was SOOOOOOOOOO good that you just can't get yourself to join yet?
IF this movement has as you put it, the fingerprints of God all over it why the delay?
Still doubting? Still not convinced?
I think if you saw the finger prints of God all over something, one wouldn't hesitate to join.

[ChicagoPastor]

Originally Posted by PocatelloApostolic

Friends & Romans,
This meeting has been a historical event with a dynamic spirit that completely made fools and idiots out of all the nay-sayers and rumor starters. Some of you should have kept quiet until the meeting was over. Now the egg is on your face and by the way, what does shoe leather taste like anyhow??!! JUST GET THE CD'S!! The Spirit of the EC & GC was one of humility and desire for stronger Apostolic doctrine, holiness, and revival. I'm glad I came and feel that this fellowship will only grow with time. This meeting has had the finger prints of the Holy Ghost on it from the first night! THE CHURCH IS GOING ON!!

Too bad you don't flow in that same "dynamic Spirit"
Careful! Sounds like your attitude is the kinda the Tulsa 6 are trying to avoid!

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Friends... I can attest to the fact that some issues are almost pushing some of these brethren into these actions. Let me tell you how I see it from my perspective.

I preach a lot of these meetings (I already have over 30 meetings lined up this year while Pastoring a great revival Church). I know how heartbreaking it is to go to an 'Apostolic Pentecostal' meeting and see things that I've spent a lot of time preaching and teaching my people the dangers of.

I'm not a 'clothesline' preacher but a 'commitment' preacher without a doubt. I think that really living for God takes some spiritual disciplines. When I came to my Church there was less than 50 people. Today there are many times over that. The VAST MAJORITY of them are people I've won to the Lord either personally or through the ministry of our Church.

I've seen them go from drunkards, whores, prostitutes, spouse abusers, drug addicts and pushers to every other sad walk of life into absolutely wonderful Saints that you would NEVER imagine lived the life some of them lived.

I was the 'husbandman'.
I was the 'shepherd'.
I was the 'keeper of the vineyard'.
I was the 'friend of the bridegroom'.
I was the 'Man of God'.

I wept with them until the victory.
I rejoiced with them over clean drug tests.
I shouted with them over salvaged marriages.
I cried with them over the consequences of past sins.
I prayed with them over bitter heartaches.
I encouraged them through vicious temptations.

I SAW THEM COME OUT VICTORIOUS!

And yet when I take them to certain meetings (I still DO take them, however) I'm always amazed at the number of people who say, "Pastor, I thought Pentecostals didn't.... I thought everyone who had truth stopped..." on and on I could go. We most always have 'new converts' that find themselves confused by these things.

Yet, I've seen young people walk out of my Church to shack up with young men in other so called 'Apostolic' Churches... without ever 'backsliding'!

I've seen them start dating young people from other so called 'Apostolic' Churches and suddenly start questioning whether Baptism in Jesus Name is really all that important. "That Pastor says it's just a sign that doesn't mean all that much."

I've seen them okay 'social drinking' in other 'Apostolic' environments and when my Saints go to their family's home (who go to the 'social drinking' Church) they get to sit there with their children and watch folks from the other 'church' drink alcoholic beverages.

Here is where I stand: I'm not for separating families. That's dumb. I am, however, for maintaining a good, clean, Godly fellowship with other Pentecostal Churches who have true Apostolic values and disciplines of the heart.

I won these folks. Why in the Name of God wouldn't I want to protect them?!?!?

And if I can do it in such a way that I can have Godly fellowship with strong Churches while maintaining civility with others who don't see everything 'eye to eye' with me... why wouldn't I want to do it?

I understand the longing for fellowship that doesn't create unholy questions in the minds of people I bled for.

Rev., I'll set aside the implication that the "other" churches in the UPC condone and promote homosexuality... No doudt that is not true, but some of the other things you mentioned, such as;

tasting alcohol, having a less rigid view regarding baptismal regeneration, and a tolerance of the "Light Doctrine". How does this new group prevent these things from happening there? And specificly, are these forbidden views/actions in the WPF?

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by NW Pastor

I am not as interested in what is said as what is done. The Tulsa 6 have told brethren they do not have to leave the UPC to be a part of this new "fellowship" which will allow them to form a competing organization within an organization complete with a foreign missions, home missions, youth, education, SS, and ladies department, and even bible quizzing. They can fellowship each other and ostracize the rest of the UPCI.

Again, why stay UPC? There will be no end to the friction as the two camps drift apart fellowship less and disagree more.

A house divided against itself cannot stand. How the leaders think we can peacefully co-exist is beyond me. It will not happen. There will be a new organization completely separate from the UPCI in time. It does't even take a prophet to predict it.

So again, I don't care as much about what is said in the pulpit by the master orators of the Tulsa 6. The are careful word crafters. What will be the results of the decisions that are made?

Originally Posted by NW Pastor

I grieve for the loss of great men in our midst. However, we have already lost them. James said that men went out from us because they were not of us.

Many of the men at Tulsa have already formed associations that shut out others in the organization, even to the extent of sponsoring alternate youth camps and such like.

As dissapointed as I am about the loss of community, I have this vain wish that the men in leadership of the WPF be forthcoming about their intentions.

They will be out in time, because they have already left in the heart.

I agree! Good words.

[mizpeh]

Pelathais,

You've had some horrible things done to you by some of those that name the name of Christ. But you seem to be lumping them, the men who have done harm to you and the name of Christ, all into one mold....the PAJC/UC mold. But there are some posters here who fit that mold, maybe not the epitomy of it, but who would lie within the confines of that mold who you have to admit are not in the same category as those who have injured you....CS and Steadfast come to mind. After many months of reading their posts I cannot lump them with the hateful men you have described in your post. These are sincere men who understand some things differently than others and hold to their beliefs. Just as we hold to ours.

Do you think of ALL the Tulsa men along the same lines as those whom you have known to have abused their position of authority in the past? I understand your skepticism but are you being unfair in your assessment of them? Time will tell and God knows all the intents of the heart. Maybe I'm misreading your posts, but all UC's are not evil and all Liberals are not good.