The High Price of Intentional Indiscretions

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Felicity

Well, the way I look at it is that this is what they believe so they don't have any choice other than to make the judgment calls they make, but that doesn't make it right or true. So I can accept the person and love and appreciate them even though they believe someone like myself perhaps won't be saved.

I'm not relying on what other people say in regard to my salvation but on what the Word of God says.

And I agree with you on that, Sis. But I can't help but consider the collateral damage that goes along with those heavy statements...not damage to me particularly, but certainly to many of the little babes in the Lord.

[TRFrance]

Interesting and sad story. Unfortunately, its not only individuals that have taken this path, but also churches.

Too many times, I've seen or known of churches that first decided to step away from the "standards", glorying in their newfound "freedom". But check them out a year later and ... their baptism doctrine has changed; their salvation doctrine changes; they begin to tolerate, then accept, Trinitarian doctrine... next thing you know, they're no longer Apostolic any more.

I'm not really extreme myself on the standards thing -- I consider myself to be moderately conservative. But it never ceases to amaze me how so many churches and pastors have started off by leaving the standards, and eventually departing from Apostolic doctrine altogether.

I've seen it happen over and over; I don't have a clear explanation for why one ends up leading to another (since there's no direct link between the standards and Acts 2:38/Oneness). I guess in many cases there's just a latent spirit of compromise there, that starts with one area and then ends up leading to compromise in other areas. Just my 2 cents .

[The Dean]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Interesting and sad story. Unfortunately, its not only individuals that have taken this path, but also churches.

Too many times, I've seen or known of churches that first decided to step away from the "standards", glorying in their newfound "freedom". But check them out a year later and ... their baptism doctrine has changed; their salvation doctrine changes; they begin to tolerate, then accept, Trinitarian doctrine... next thing you know, they're no longer Apostolic any more.

I'm not really extreme myself on the standards thing -- I consider myself to be moderately conservative. But it never ceases to amaze me how so many churches and pastors have started off by leaving the standards, and eventually departing from Apostolic doctrine altogether.

I've seen it happen over and over; I don't have a clear explanation for why one ends up leading to another (since there's no direct link between the standards and Acts 2:38/Oneness). I guess in many cases there's just a latent spirit of compromise there, that starts with one area and then ends up leading to compromise in other areas. Just my 2 cents .

This is a great post.

[Coonskinner]

This is a great thread.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Pardon another lengthy (albeit, shorter than the last) post but my heart just seems to be speaking to me lately. (I do wish it was in the middle of the day instead of the 'wee' hours of the morning!)

I remember a few years ago that I was preaching for a young couple that I have spent much time trying to help. They had seen, firsthand, some element of hypocrisy in ‘high places’ and I honestly believed that – because of their confidence in my ministry - I could help reestablish their hearts back to a sure spiritual foundation.

I spent entire week with them and was to culminate on a Friday night with a big rally at their Church. Each night they seemed to look and conduct themselves as being genuinely Apostolic. However, on that Friday I overheard them in a fairly heated argument (I was staying in their home) and repeatedly heard the woman saying, “Even if you don’t believe it I think it’s the wrong way to prove it!”

I wandered back to my room to get far enough away that embarrassment might not be a factor. Imagine my shock, however, when I walked out ready to go to Church and saw the young ‘Pastor’ in a casual shirt and pants. He had some kind of a huge ring on his hand. Each night before he was dressed in a suit and no ring whatsoever. Just about the time that I gathered my composure his wife walked around the corner. She was wearing a skirt about 4 inches above her knee, a blouse so sheer you could see her slip and enough makeup to replenish Maybelline. Each of the other four nights she was the epitome of holiness and modesty.

As you might imagine the Rally was strained. Even though their Presbyter was one of the leading authors of holiness books in our ranks this couple had decided to ‘make a statement’ that night. What little worship that was mustered by the Sectional Youth man was crucified when this host ‘Pastor’ walked to the pulpit and talked… all the while playing with this huge ring on his pinky. Then he introduced his wife to lead song service and you could feel the confusion fill the house. The Presbyter, being a classy man, acted like nothing was awry as he introduced me and, thankfully, there was enough response to help carry me through the message.

Obviously after the Rally and fellowship, as we were on the way home, our conversation turned to his ‘belief’ that he had to ‘prove a point’ to those ‘uptight Apostolics’. I have to admit that, in all fairness, his wife was more mortified than in agreement but he was adamant that he was the ‘enlightened one’ whose task was to shove his ‘freedom’ full in the face of the Body of Christ.

Needless to say, my heartbeat and opinion of this once potential laden couple was forever crushed that night. They ‘made their statement’ but in doing so they lost the confidence and trust of an entire fellowship because of their flesh driven arrogance. Their ‘freedom’ to make a statement cost them dearly.

To complicate matters they quickly felt completely alienated because, truthfully, the greatest statement they made is that they didn’t share certain core values that most within their fellowship did. They ‘proved their point’ but in doing so they also proved their lack of respect for those among their own needed fellowship. Their ‘right’ to prove a point cost them their fellowship leaving them feeling alienated.

I’ll never forget how I felt that night as I lay in bed in their home. I knew that a critical mistake had been made. I felt violated in my friendship and that all my sacrifice to help them had been lost. But that was not the greatest loss that day. The greatest loss was theirs and it was a twofold loss that day as…
• Within they lost the trust and confidence of not only a man who wanted to help them but an entire arena of people who loved them.
• Without they lost their familiar realm of fellowship leaving their own lives feeling alienated.

They paid a painfully High Price for their Intentional Indiscretion!

It’s not necessary that I go into the details of how they ended up being a casualty of carnal Christianity as evidenced by their divorce and steady march into one of the most complete deceptions I’ve ever seen. That’s all past and there’s nothing much to be done about that now.

What is on my mind, however, is the frequency that I feel that same sad, sick feeling in the last several months. We’ve seen once ‘safe’ meetings politicized, seen a flood of Youth Camps doing things that would have been unheard of a few years ago and evidently some questions about more recent meetings. It’s not my job to judge them or determine their intentions by doing certain things; but it is my observation that we, as a movement, need to realize The High Price of Intentional Indiscretions. What is that price? Just as that young couple…

(a) We are evolving into a movement that is losing trust and confidence in certain personalities among us. That is unfortunate because we have some priceless men with good intentions among us. But when they intentionally ‘prove their point’ at the expense of what others believe there will always be a loss of respect and honor for those certain personalities.

That is a high price but it always accompanies intentional indiscretions.

(b) It also produces people who suddenly find themselves feeling alienated from the strength and support of that fellowship that made them what they are. This is why far too many who reach for another path suddenly start saying, “I just don’t fit in with them anymore. They don’t understand grace like I do. Those nasty affirmation statements divided us.” No, we divided ourselves when we stopped valuing the core beliefs of the fellowship that supported us until we could stand on our own. Nobody wants to feel alienated but, again, those intentional indiscretions you ‘have a right to make’ have the ability to leave you all alone.

It’s a high price that always accompanies intentional indiscretions.

I want to trust my brethren.
I need the fellowship of those that may not believe standards exactly like me.
But more and more often I get that 'sick' feeling leaving me wondering if those 'indiscretions' are intentional.
We ARE paying a high price whether we want to admit it or not.

God help us as an organization - as a fellowship – to make very sure we’re willing to pay the price it’s going to cost before we make intentional indiscretions that will violate the very ones we need the most.

Selah......

There is no easy way to handle such a change but this young couple obviously went for shock value and it became all about them instead of preserving the relationship.

I try to be respectful of my more conservative dressing brothers and sisters, but obviously this young woman had a 'heart' problem to wear immodest clothing. I wouldn't be so concerned with the casual dress pants and ring on the young man's hand, but I would be more concerned with a sheer blouse and a short skirt.

Just thinking about this thread and thought we might want to re-visit it.

Blessings, Rhoni

[AmericanAngel]

Just thinking about this thread and thought we might want to re-visit it.

Blessings, Rhoni


------

I have been going to a UPCI church for 21 years. I have no church background before this. Nothing.
What I have concluded in that 21 years, is that if a church body CONTINUALY presses the guilt button on the outward appearance WITHOUT love, we will always have precious men and women of God scream and run for the hills because the INWARD heart issues were not dealt with.
The question that ran and still runs through my mind is, "Will I still be loved if....if I say what's really on my mind? How I really feel about this issue?"
There are so many things that happen to a young child in life and then we bring all this baggage with us to church and here comes sister holier than thou, and says with pointed finger, "you're gonna go straight to hell if you keep cutting that hair!." ( my hands are accually shaking right now!)
We are not called of God to point fingers.
**We cannot punish people for being honest, or they will secretly hold inside their true feelings, sharing their thoughts with only a few close friends or they will explode!**
We are called to share the gospel, to advise...one plants , one waters, but God does the rest.
Some people that know me might be surprised at how I really feel about some things. I choose and want to please God. He is the one who molds and fashions me into the vessel he wants me to be.
We need to pray for each other and for pasters and their wives and familys that these inner heart emotions about living up to the "S" word... of church society does not become our righteousness that we wear, but His righteousness that we cloth ourselves with.

[theoldpaths]

I believe church discipline should start off with love and the spirit of meekness, giving the person space to repent, and then it escalating up from there.

The following are scriptures that I believe suit church discipline and illustrate good principles to use:

Matt 18:15-19.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

1Co 4:18 Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you.
1Co 4:19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.
1Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
1Co 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

2Co 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

My personal opinion is that church discipline should start off with going to a person alone and with love and the spirit of meekness and using the word of God, then giving the person space to repent. After the space, if the person still hasn't chang'd, then get 1 or 2 others and go to that person with the word and then give the person space to repent again. If after this space, the person still hasn't chang'd, then take it to the church leadership to deal with him and give him space to repent. Finally, after that space, if the person still hasn't chang'd, then bring it before the whole church and let that person be like unto a heathen person and a publican.

1 Cor 5 shows how Paul dealt with one and I believe 2 Cor 2:1-10 shows Paul's admonishing the truth to re-fellowship with him. Its easy for people to rise up in judgement against those who rebel, but Paul wanted to see if they could be obedient in ALL THINGS by receiving him back, forgiving him, and showing love back to him.

Now some believe that disobedient and/or rebellious people should not be dealt with at all, but that it should be left up to God to deal with them; essentially leaving the wheat and tares to grow together until the end. However, let me remind you that the interpretation of that parable was given later and that "the field is the world". The field is the world NOT the church. The bible is very specific that part of the responsibility of the ministry is to reprove and rebuke; not to show off spiritual muscle and power and authority, but because as a watchman and shepherd, you love that sheep and know that if they continue in what they are doing, it will be harmful for them. Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me - the rod is for correction.

1 Cor 5:6 and Gal 5:9 shows that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. Because Achon took an idol and hid it in his tent, thousands of God's holy people who were innocent and on the front lines lost their lives even tho they did absolutely nothing wrong. One's man's disobedience caused thousands of innocents to die at the hands of their enemies. Since they had a leader called of God to be their leader, he sought after God to reveal the root cause of the problem and it was revealed and it was taken care of and after that God's people had victory over the enemies of their souls again.

Leaven that is not dealt with in a church will cause the enemies of God's people to have victory over them. A compromising church will lose its power and become a weak church.

God wants his church to be a beacon of light and a shining example to the world where they can go and get deliverance, but a compromised church that is losing its power, loses its witness.

That is why Paul said that he turned some over to Satan to learn not to blaspheme - basically for the destruction of the flesh that the Spirit may be saved - that they would learn.

If a loving mother say her little boy with a fork going towards an outlet but still far away from it, she might say with loving concern, honey don't do that you are going to hurt yourself. If the boy doesn't listen, she might raise her voice and point to him with a stern face and say, I said don't do that, you are going to hurt yourself. Finally, if the boy still persists, she might get up and smack him really hard. Why did she do these things? Because she wants to abuse her power and authority and show off her spiritual muscle? No, because she loves and cares for the little boy and knows that he will get hurt if not die - she does it for him.

So should the watchman and Pastor of the church in my opinion.

Glory to God!

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

If a loving mother say her little boy with a fork going towards an outlet but still far away from it, she might say with loving concern, honey don't do that you are going to hurt yourself. If the boy doesn't listen, she might raise her voice and point to him with a stern face and say, I said don't do that, you are going to hurt yourself. Finally, if the boy still persists, she might get up and smack him really hard. Why did she do these things? Because she wants to abuse her power and authority and show off her spiritual muscle? No, because she loves and cares for the little boy and knows that he will get hurt if not die - she does it for him.

So should the watchman and Pastor of the church in my opinion.

The problem I have with your assessment of the situation is that you liken the saints to children who aren't responsible for their own actions and the ministry as those who are responsible. That's now how it is. We are all responsible for our own salvation. The pastor can tell us the guidelines according to the Bible, but it's up to us to obey them. He shouldn't hit us over the head if we don't listen. It's our own responsibility.

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

The problem I have with your assessment of the situation is that you liken the saints to children who aren't responsible for their own actions and the ministry as those who are responsible. That's now how it is. We are all responsible for our own salvation. The pastor can tell us the guidelines according to the Bible, but it's up to us to obey them. He shouldn't hit us over the head if we don't listen. It's our own responsibility.

Watchmen on the watchtower have a perspective that those who are not on the watchtower do not have.

Like it or not, the ministry has a God given responsibility to reprove, rebuke, and correct.

I'll be the first to admit that my one analogy does not fit all situations. New born babes in the Lord do not know all of the dangers that they might face, whereas seasoned saints who know the word are more knowledgeable. Hence, a mother might be quicker to scold a teenager that has been warned about something over and over again.

I'm aware that some do not take correction well.

Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Pro 15:10 Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.

But for wise men...

Pro 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

Finally...

Pro 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

Watchmen on the watchtower have a perspective that those who are not on the watchtower do not have.

Like it or not, the ministry has a God given responsibility to reprove, rebuke, and correct.

I'll be the first to admit that my one analogy does not fit all situations. New born babes in the Lord do not know all of the dangers that they might face, whereas seasoned saints who know the word are more knowledgeable. Hence, a mother might be quicker to scold a teenager that has been warned about something over and over again.

I'm aware that some do not take correction well.

Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Pro 15:10 Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.

But for wise men...

Pro 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

Finally...

Pro 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

This, of course, is assuming that all watchmen have a perspective and not an agenda.

I have met a few with an agenda. I have met several who have a perspective.

I was only 'beaten' by those with an agenda.

And that bolded part...that's only when they are in the Word, and not the manual.