Tulsa Report Day 2

[RevBuddy]

Originally Posted by pelathais

With respect, whenever I hear something like this I find that the "drastic changes" never even happened. Maybe you are sincere, but this just strikes me as the kind of "competitive holiness" that is so insidious.

This sounds like Steadfast's accusation about "UPC" homosexuals "shacking up without ever even backsliding." Didn't happen. Pure and simple.

In fact, the only instance of tolerating homosexuality within the UPC that I ever knew to exist involved an on-again-off-again "Tulsa Coordinator."

Once again we see the Tulsa apologists and their "great spirit" and just how they take the "high road." Innuedo, half-truths and outright fabrications.

They did this after Youth Congress and they did this after General Conference. Just because they managed to forgo the constant charater assination for a few hours last week they want us to believe their raqnt about their "pure motives" and "right spirit."

WAY TO GO, PELATHAIS!!!! I couldn't have said it better!! But I would have tried.

Originally Posted by pelathais

With respect, whenever I hear something like this I find that the "drastic changes" never even happened. Maybe you are sincere, but this just strikes me as the kind of "competitive holiness" that is so insidious.

This sounds like Steadfast's accusation about "UPC" homosexuals "shacking up without ever even backsliding." Didn't happen. Pure and simple.

In fact, the only instance of tolerating homosexuality within the UPC that I ever knew to exist involved an on-again-off-again "Tulsa Coordinator."

Once again we see the Tulsa apologists and their "great spirit" and just how they take the "high road." Innuedo, half-truths and outright fabrications.

They did this after Youth Congress and they did this after General Conference. Just because they managed to forgo the constant character assassination for a few hours last week they want us to believe their rant about their "pure motives" and "right spirit."

Originally Posted by RevBuddy

WAY TO GO, PELATHAIS!!!! I couldn't have said it better!! But I would have tried.

Pelathais and Associates,

In this vast forum world there people of every kind and opinion. Opinions are great things that help form our personalities.

I have opinions. You have opinions. However, when those opinions impugn the character of another man it goes beyond to boundaries of good taste and into the realms of defamation.

It's obvious that your 'opinion' is that you don't agree with me. I'm a big boy on a faceless forum so that doesn't bother me. It would appear from past posts... as well as this one... that you don't much like me. Again, the richtor scale on my concern didn't register too much shaking in my frail heart over it.

However, to openly call me a liar is something that I don't intend to tolerate quietly. I frankly have no idea what you're talking about when you say something about UPC homosexuals shacking up without backsliding... however, to fabricate something like that did give you a great opportunity to smear Bro. TLC. Obviously, to call someone a liar is bad but to totally fabricate a lie to attack another good man? You, sir / ma'am, show well your character for what it is... and, honestly, it's not a good showing.

The closest I came to talking about 'UPC homosexuals shacking up without backsliding' was when someone questioned the validity of the convictions these men who are leaving might have. I spoke (listen carefully now, Pelathais, because details are important) about the dilemma I've faced in finding fellowship in just any Church.

One of the examples I spoke of was when I had a young person leave and shack up with her boyfriend and they were used in Church... even on the platform... just like nothing was wrong. This was stated in my prior post:

Yet, I've seen young people walk out of my Church to shack up with young men in other so called 'Apostolic' Churches... without ever 'backsliding'!

Where do you get 'homosexual' or 'UPC' out of that? Are you so bereft of literal arguments that you have to make things up to prove a point?

Thus to call me a liar either makes you (a) a horribly inaccurate mindreader (b) a miserably failed expert at 'reading between the lines' or (c) someone who doesn't mind twisting the words of others to attack a person (TLC) an organization (UPC) or a sincere conviction.

To be called a liar by someone with those credentials... well... it's almost an honor.

[Dora]

Originally Posted by pelathais

With respect, whenever I hear something like this I find that the "drastic changes" never even happened. Maybe you are sincere, but this just strikes me as the kind of "competitive holiness" that is so insidious.

This sounds like Steadfast's accusation about "UPC" homosexuals "shacking up without ever even backsliding." Didn't happen. Pure and simple.

In fact, the only instance of tolerating homosexuality within the UPC that I ever knew to exist involved an on-again-off-again "Tulsa Coordinator."

Once again we see the Tulsa apologists and their "great spirit" and just how they take the "high road." Innuedo, half-truths and outright fabrications.

They did this after Youth Congress and they did this after General Conference. Just because they managed to forgo the constant character assassination for a few hours last week they want us to believe their rant about their "pure motives" and "right spirit."

To whom are you referring???

[Tina]

Originally Posted by pelathais

With respect, whenever I hear something like this I find that the "drastic changes" never even happened. Maybe you are sincere, but this just strikes me as the kind of "competitive holiness" that is so insidious.

This sounds like Steadfast's accusation about "UPC" homosexuals "shacking up without ever even backsliding." Didn't happen. Pure and simple.

In fact, the only instance of tolerating homosexuality within the UPC that I ever knew to exist involved an on-again-off-again "Tulsa Coordinator."

Once again we see the Tulsa apologists and their "great spirit" and just how they take the "high road." Innuedo, half-truths and outright fabrications.

They did this after Youth Congress and they did this after General Conference. Just because they managed to forgo the constant character assassination for a few hours last week they want us to believe their rant about their "pure motives" and "right spirit."

Just one question about the above post...Are you calling Steadfast a liar?

Originally Posted by Tina

Just one question about the above post...Are you calling Steadfast a liar?

YA THINK?

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Tina

Just one question about the above post...Are you calling Steadfast a liar?

I don't see how there could be any question about that.

Of course he did.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by pelathais

With respect, whenever I hear something like this I find that the "drastic changes" never even happened. Maybe you are sincere, but this just strikes me as the kind of "competitive holiness" that is so insidious.

This sounds like Steadfast's accusation about "UPC" homosexuals "shacking up without ever even backsliding." Didn't happen. Pure and simple.
In fact, the only instance of tolerating homosexuality within the UPC that I ever knew to exist involved an on-again-off-again "Tulsa Coordinator."

Once again we see the Tulsa apologists and their "great spirit" and just how they take the "high road." Innuedo, half-truths and outright fabrications.

They did this after Youth Congress and they did this after General Conference. Just because they managed to forgo the constant character assassination for a few hours last week they want us to believe their rant about their "pure motives" and "right spirit."

Is it within the rules to call another poster a liar these days?

[Esther]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Is it within the rules to call another poster a liar these days?

No we do not allow posters to call each other liars.

However, let me ask you something. IF Bro. Joe comes on and says Acts 2:38 is no longer necessary for salvation. And YOU tell Bro. Joe he is wrong it is necessary.

Did you call him a liar? OR did you dispute the subject matter?

I saw the INFORMATION being disputed NOT the informant.

IF we look at this as calling someone a liar, then we have had a LOT of folks calling each other liars, because most on here have disputed something said on nearly every thread.

[Maple Leaf]

Originally Posted by pelathais

This sounds like Steadfast's accusation about "UPC" homosexuals "shacking up without ever even backsliding." Didn't happen. Pure and simple.

Here is Steadfast's original post.

Steadfast may be a misguided standard keeping conservative, but:

- he didn't say anything about homsexuals shacking up, and

- he didn't say anything about UPC anythings shacking up.

If Steadfast said it happened, I believe it happened.

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Friends... I can attest to the fact that some issues are almost pushing some of these brethren into these actions. Let me tell you how I see it from my perspective.

I preach a lot of these meetings (I already have over 30 meetings lined up this year while Pastoring a great revival Church). I know how heartbreaking it is to go to an 'Apostolic Pentecostal' meeting and see things that I've spent a lot of time preaching and teaching my people the dangers of.

I'm not a 'clothesline' preacher but a 'commitment' preacher without a doubt. I think that really living for God takes some spiritual disciplines. When I came to my Church there was less than 50 people. Today there are many times over that. The VAST MAJORITY of them are people I've won to the Lord either personally or through the ministry of our Church.

I've seen them go from drunkards, whores, prostitutes, spouse abusers, drug addicts and pushers to every other sad walk of life into absolutely wonderful Saints that you would NEVER imagine lived the life some of them lived.

I was the 'husbandman'.
I was the 'shepherd'.
I was the 'keeper of the vineyard'.
I was the 'friend of the bridegroom'.
I was the 'Man of God'.

I wept with them until the victory.
I rejoiced with them over clean drug tests.
I shouted with them over salvaged marriages.
I cried with them over the consequences of past sins.
I prayed with them over bitter heartaches.
I encouraged them through vicious temptations.

I SAW THEM COME OUT VICTORIOUS!

And yet when I take them to certain meetings (I still DO take them, however) I'm always amazed at the number of people who say, "Pastor, I thought Pentecostals didn't.... I thought everyone who had truth stopped..." on and on I could go. We most always have 'new converts' that find themselves confused by these things.

Yet, I've seen young people walk out of my Church to shack up with young men in other so called 'Apostolic' Churches... without ever 'backsliding'!

I've seen them start dating young people from other so called 'Apostolic' Churches and suddenly start questioning whether Baptism in Jesus Name is really all that important. "That Pastor says it's just a sign that doesn't mean all that much."

I've seen them okay 'social drinking' in other 'Apostolic' environments and when my Saints go to their family's home (who go to the 'social drinking' Church) they get to sit there with their children and watch folks from the other 'church' drink alcoholic beverages.

Here is where I stand: I'm not for separating families. That's dumb. I am, however, for maintaining a good, clean, Godly fellowship with other Pentecostal Churches who have true Apostolic values and disciplines of the heart.

I won these folks. Why in the Name of God wouldn't I want to protect them?!?!?

And if I can do it in such a way that I can have Godly fellowship with strong Churches while maintaining civility with others who don't see everything 'eye to eye' with me... why wouldn't I want to do it?

I understand the longing for fellowship that doesn't create unholy questions in the minds of people I bled for.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by NW Pastor

I am not as interested in what is said as what is done. The Tulsa 6 have told brethren they do not have to leave the UPC to be a part of this new "fellowship" which will allow them to form a competing organization within an organization complete with a foreign missions, home missions, youth, education, SS, and ladies department, and even bible quizzing. They can fellowship each other and ostracize the rest of the UPCI.

Again, why stay UPC? There will be no end to the friction as the two camps drift apart fellowship less and disagree more.

A house divided against itself cannot stand. How the leaders think we can peacefully co-exist is beyond me. It will not happen. There will be a new organization completely separate from the UPCI in time. It does't even take a prophet to predict it.

So again, I don't care as much about what is said in the pulpit by the master orators of the Tulsa 6. The are careful word crafters. What will be the results of the decisions that are made?

Originally Posted by NW Pastor

I grieve for the loss of great men in our midst. However, we have already lost them. James said that men went out from us because they were not of us.

Many of the men at Tulsa have already formed associations that shut out others in the organization, even to the extent of sponsoring alternate youth camps and such like.

As dissapointed as I am about the loss of community, I have this vain wish that the men in leadership of the WPF be forthcoming about their intentions.

They will be out in time, because they have already left in the heart.

I agree! Good words.