Tulsa Report Day 2

[lad]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Friends... I can attest to the fact that some issues are almost pushing some of these brethren into these actions. Let me tell you how I see it from my perspective.

I preach a lot of these meetings (I already have over 30 meetings lined up this year while Pastoring a great revival Church). I know how heartbreaking it is to go to an 'Apostolic Pentecostal' meeting and see things that I've spent a lot of time preaching and teaching my people the dangers of.

I'm not a 'clothesline' preacher but a 'commitment' preacher without a doubt. I think that really living for God takes some spiritual disciplines. When I came to my Church there was less than 50 people. Today there are many times over that. The VAST MAJORITY of them are people I've won to the Lord either personally or through the ministry of our Church.

I've seen them go from drunkards, whores, prostitutes, spouse abusers, drug addicts and pushers to every other sad walk of life into absolutely wonderful Saints that you would NEVER imagine lived the life some of them lived.

I was the 'husbandman'.
I was the 'Shepherd'.
I was the 'keeper of the vineyard'.
I was the 'friend of the bridegroom'.
I was the 'Man of God'.

I wept with them until the victory.
I rejoiced with them over clean drug tests.
I shouted with them over salvaged marriages.
I cried with them over the consequences of past sins.
I prayed with them over bitter heartaches.
I encouraged them through vicious temptations.

I SAW THEM COME OUT VICTORIOUS!

....shouldn't that be a lowercase "s"..... (shepherd) since He is the Shepherd.

lol - just remembering your previous posts...

Great post by the way!

Originally Posted by lad

....shouldn't that be a lowercase "s"..... (shepherd) since He is the Shepherd.

lol - just remembering your previous posts...

Great post by the way!

Duly noted.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Friends... I can attest to the fact that some issues are almost pushing some of these brethren into these actions. Let me tell you how I see it from my perspective.

I preach a lot of these meetings (I already have over 30 meetings lined up this year while Pastoring a great revival Church). I know how heartbreaking it is to go to an 'Apostolic Pentecostal' meeting and see things that I've spent a lot of time preaching and teaching my people the dangers of.

I'm not a 'clothesline' preacher but a 'commitment' preacher without a doubt. I think that really living for God takes some spiritual disciplines. When I came to my Church there was less than 50 people. Today there are many times over that. The VAST MAJORITY of them are people I've won to the Lord either personally or through the ministry of our Church.

I've seen them go from drunkards, whores, prostitutes, spouse abusers, drug addicts and pushers to every other sad walk of life into absolutely wonderful Saints that you would NEVER imagine lived the life some of them lived.

I was the 'husbandman'.
I was the 'shepherd'.
I was the 'keeper of the vineyard'.
I was the 'friend of the bridegroom'.
I was the 'Man of God'.

I wept with them until the victory.
I rejoiced with them over clean drug tests.
I shouted with them over salvaged marriages.
I cried with them over the consequences of past sins.
I prayed with them over bitter heartaches.
I encouraged them through vicious temptations.

I SAW THEM COME OUT VICTORIOUS!

And yet when I take them to certain meetings (I still DO take them, however) I'm always amazed at the number of people who say, "Pastor, I thought Pentecostals didn't.... I thought everyone who had truth stopped..." on and on I could go. We most always have 'new converts' that find themselves confused by these things.

Yet, I've seen young people walk out of my Church to shack up with young men in other so called 'Apostolic' Churches... without ever 'backsliding'!

I've seen them start dating young people from other so called 'Apostolic' Churches and suddenly start questioning whether Baptism in Jesus Name is really all that important. "That Pastor says it's just a sign that doesn't mean all that much."

I've seen them okay 'social drinking' in other 'Apostolic' environments and when my Saints go to their family's home (who go to the 'social drinking' Church) they get to sit there with their children and watch folks from the other 'church' drink alcoholic beverages.

Here is where I stand: I'm not for separating families. That's dumb. I am, however, for maintaining a good, clean, Godly fellowship with other Pentecostal Churches who have true Apostolic values and disciplines of the heart.

I won these folks. Why in the Name of God wouldn't I want to protect them?!?!?

And if I can do it in such a way that I can have Godly fellowship with strong Churches while maintaining civility with others who don't see everything 'eye to eye' with me... why wouldn't I want to do it?

I understand the longing for fellowship that doesn't create unholy questions in the minds of people I bled for.

Rev., I'll set aside the implication that the "other" churches in the UPC condone and promote homosexuality... No doudt that is not true, but some of the other things you mentioned, such as;

tasting alcohol, having a less rigid view regarding baptismal regeneration, and a tolerance of the "Light Doctrine". How does this new group prevent these things from happening there? And specificly, are these forbidden views/actions in the WPF?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Rev., I'll set aside the implication that the "other" churches in the UPC condone and promote homosexuality... No doudt that is not true, but some of the other things you mentioned, such as;

tasting alcohol, having a less rigid view regarding baptismal regeneration, and a tolerance of the "Light Doctrine". How does this new group prevent these things from happening there? And specificly, are these forbidden views/actions in the WPF?

I was thinking the same thing about the shacking up thing. I think and hope he meant girls in his church. And how this is not considered sin in any type of church is beyond me.

[ChicagoPastor]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Friends... I can attest to the fact that some issues are almost pushing some of these brethren into these actions. Let me tell you how I see it from my perspective.

I preach a lot of these meetings (I already have over 30 meetings lined up this year while Pastoring a great revival Church). I know how heartbreaking it is to go to an 'Apostolic Pentecostal' meeting and see things that I've spent a lot of time preaching and teaching my people the dangers of.

I'm not a 'clothesline' preacher but a 'commitment' preacher without a doubt. I think that really living for God takes some spiritual disciplines. When I came to my Church there was less than 50 people. Today there are many times over that. The VAST MAJORITY of them are people I've won to the Lord either personally or through the ministry of our Church.

I've seen them go from drunkards, whores, prostitutes, spouse abusers, drug addicts and pushers to every other sad walk of life into absolutely wonderful Saints that you would NEVER imagine lived the life some of them lived.

I was the 'husbandman'.
I was the 'shepherd'.
I was the 'keeper of the vineyard'.
I was the 'friend of the bridegroom'.
I was the 'Man of God'.

I wept with them until the victory.
I rejoiced with them over clean drug tests.
I shouted with them over salvaged marriages.
I cried with them over the consequences of past sins.
I prayed with them over bitter heartaches.
I encouraged them through vicious temptations.

I SAW THEM COME OUT VICTORIOUS!

And yet when I take them to certain meetings (I still DO take them, however) I'm always amazed at the number of people who say, "Pastor, I thought Pentecostals didn't.... I thought everyone who had truth stopped..." on and on I could go. We most always have 'new converts' that find themselves confused by these things.

Yet, I've seen young people walk out of my Church to shack up with young men in other so called 'Apostolic' Churches... without ever 'backsliding'!

I've seen them start dating young people from other so called 'Apostolic' Churches and suddenly start questioning whether Baptism in Jesus Name is really all that important. "That Pastor says it's just a sign that doesn't mean all that much."

I've seen them okay 'social drinking' in other 'Apostolic' environments and when my Saints go to their family's home (who go to the 'social drinking' Church) they get to sit there with their children and watch folks from the other 'church' drink alcoholic beverages.

Here is where I stand: I'm not for separating families. That's dumb. I am, however, for maintaining a good, clean, Godly fellowship with other Pentecostal Churches who have true Apostolic values and disciplines of the heart.

I won these folks. Why in the Name of God wouldn't I want to protect them?!?!?

And if I can do it in such a way that I can have Godly fellowship with strong Churches while maintaining civility with others who don't see everything 'eye to eye' with me... why wouldn't I want to do it?

I understand the longing for fellowship that doesn't create unholy questions in the minds of people I bled for.

Bro. I feel your sincerity and your concern in the above post....had Tulsa 6 talked about all these things maybe I'd have a different opinion, but what caused this split was a simple resolution that allows for TV advertising. That was the 'big issue', that's what got everyone all stirred up.

I too have preached for a few of these men. The ones I preached for (all on the East Coast) I know are good, Godly men. I am still surprised that resolution #4 meant so much to them that they have become leaders of this new movement.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by ChicagoPastor

Bro. I feel your sincerity and your concern in the above post....had Tulsa 6 talked about all these things maybe I'd have a different opinion, but what caused this split was a simple resolution that allows for TV advertising. That was the 'big issue', that's what got everyone all stirred up.

I too have preached for a few of these men. The ones I preached for (all on the East Coast) I know are good, Godly men. I am still surprised that resolution #4 meant so much to them that they have become leaders of this new movement.

It was just the last domino.

[PastorD]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Friends... I can attest to the fact that some issues are almost pushing some of these brethren into these actions. Let me tell you how I see it from my perspective.

I preach a lot of these meetings (I already have over 30 meetings lined up this year while Pastoring a great revival Church). I know how heartbreaking it is to go to an 'Apostolic Pentecostal' meeting and see things that I've spent a lot of time preaching and teaching my people the dangers of.

I'm not a 'clothesline' preacher but a 'commitment' preacher without a doubt. I think that really living for God takes some spiritual disciplines. When I came to my Church there was less than 50 people. Today there are many times over that. The VAST MAJORITY of them are people I've won to the Lord either personally or through the ministry of our Church.

I've seen them go from drunkards, whores, prostitutes, spouse abusers, drug addicts and pushers to every other sad walk of life into absolutely wonderful Saints that you would NEVER imagine lived the life some of them lived.

I was the 'husbandman'.
I was the 'shepherd'.
I was the 'keeper of the vineyard'.
I was the 'friend of the bridegroom'.
I was the 'Man of God'.

I wept with them until the victory.
I rejoiced with them over clean drug tests.
I shouted with them over salvaged marriages.
I cried with them over the consequences of past sins.
I prayed with them over bitter heartaches.
I encouraged them through vicious temptations.

I SAW THEM COME OUT VICTORIOUS!

And yet when I take them to certain meetings (I still DO take them, however) I'm always amazed at the number of people who say, "Pastor, I thought Pentecostals didn't.... I thought everyone who had truth stopped..." on and on I could go. We most always have 'new converts' that find themselves confused by these things.

Yet, I've seen young people walk out of my Church to shack up with young men in other so called 'Apostolic' Churches... without ever 'backsliding'!

I've seen them start dating young people from other so called 'Apostolic' Churches and suddenly start questioning whether Baptism in Jesus Name is really all that important. "That Pastor says it's just a sign that doesn't mean all that much."

I've seen them okay 'social drinking' in other 'Apostolic' environments and when my Saints go to their family's home (who go to the 'social drinking' Church) they get to sit there with their children and watch folks from the other 'church' drink alcoholic beverages.

Here is where I stand: I'm not for separating families. That's dumb. I am, however, for maintaining a good, clean, Godly fellowship with other Pentecostal Churches who have true Apostolic values and disciplines of the heart.

I won these folks. Why in the Name of God wouldn't I want to protect them?!?!?

And if I can do it in such a way that I can have Godly fellowship with strong Churches while maintaining civility with others who don't see everything 'eye to eye' with me... why wouldn't I want to do it?

I understand the longing for fellowship that doesn't create unholy questions in the minds of people I bled for.

Stead....I respond not to question you or your pastorate. I believe you are passionate about what you do. However, I am staggered by this post. Having preached weeks on end in your area for the last 15 years, I can't think of one pastor there that would 'condone' or agree with shacking up or social drinking. It may go on, but they are not in agreement with it.

And then you saying that after dating young people from other churches yours are questioning Baptism in Jesus Name. I don't know of one pastor in your area that has such disrespect for Baptism.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by PastorD

Stead....I respond not to question you or your pastorate. I believe you are passionate about what you do. However, I am staggered by this post. Having preached weeks on end in your area for the last 15 years, I can't think of one pastor there that would 'condone' or agree with shacking up or social drinking. It may go on, but they are not in agreement with it.

And then you saying that after dating young people from other churches yours are questioning Baptism in Jesus Name. I don't know of one pastor in your area that has such disrespect for Baptism.

I didn't realize he pastored close enough to my church for our saints and young people to have corrupted his!

(I assumed he must be talking about some independent Oneness churches in his area that had "gone charismtaic", not UPC ones.)

[StMark]

Originally Posted by PastorD

Stead....I respond not to question you or your pastorate. I believe you are passionate about what you do. However, I am staggered by this post. Having preached weeks on end in your area for the last 15 years, I can't think of one pastor there that would 'condone' or agree with shacking up or social drinking. It may go on, but they are not in agreement with it.

And then you saying that after dating young people from other churches yours are questioning Baptism in Jesus Name. I don't know of one pastor in your area that has such disrespect for Baptism.

My lips are sealed

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by StMark

My lips are sealed

That's a first!