Tulsa Report Day 2 - Page 19

PastorD · #1 01-26-2008, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StMark

My lips are sealed

Speak up!

pelathais · #2 01-26-2008, 04:16 AM

I appreciate the reports but I have to agree with NW Pastor. Actions speak louder than words.

One thing that speaks loudly to me as well are the words that are said when people think no one else is listening. For most of my life in the UPC I sat and listened to some of the brothers who were at Tulsa as they said some of the most hateful things against their own brothers. Someone mentioned the recent "letter writers" and "how wrong they were..."

I remember one of those "letter writers" being mocked and cruelly belittled with some of the angriest and nastiest venom when I was being recruited to go to P.S.R. "It's the premier 'conservative' Apostolic conference..." they boasted. And then the discussion turned because of a book that was seen sitting out- a book by a particular author who had just started a home missions church in Texas.

That writer was called a "saint stealer" for accepting his own mother-in-law into his new church. And these guys don't want to split up families? The man who was speaking to us grew red in the face and raised his voice and bitterly denounced the brother. His own wife was trying to physically restrain his rage whenever that author's name came up. The hatred was livid. And make no mistake about it, it was hate.

And you know what? When pressed, that man confessed that he had never yet personally met the brother he was so angrily denouncing. He was just reciting the bile that had been regurgitated to him by others. That was my invitation to P.S.R. many years ago. And now many of the same cast of characters come forth, this time with meeker words. But is it the same spirit? Everyone seems to be trying a little too hard to convince themselves of something here.

1 John 4:20-21: "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also."

And the complaints about "changes" and "loss of standards?" Every time I ask about that people end up ducking behind the bush or running out of the room. Most of those complaints are like the "fog machines" at Youth Conference - they simply never existed. What we are dealing with is the long standing emnity and hatred that has so characterized our movement. And to be fair, the Baptists and and many other groups are just as bad, if not worse.

The last thing that W.T. Witherspoon said about his former PAJC fellowship concerned the "great spiritual struggle and the division among the brethren." Some of the first words he published as a new minister in the UPC were, "... as the falling away increases and men allow themselves to be possessed with a spirit of leadership and betrayal of their brethren, it is more and more necessary that we that we stand for the right."

Here's a question for you folks- have you ever been punched in the face by a brother in the Lord? Personally I've been physically attacked in churches. Anyone else? And I don't mean by a "sinner." I mean attacked by a Jesus name baptized, Holy Ghost filled - tongue talking saint of God and another time by a preacher. Have you ever had a brother or sister scream and curse at you? I've seen ministers swear like sailors, they were so angry at another preacher.

There's a lot of hate bottled up in our movement. Hate for one another. I remember seeing a friend loose $10,000's of dollars because a couple of other preachers got the board to rule against him in a matter. "That's it! We got rid of him now!" There was palapable glee.

But no, the man loved the UPC fellowship so much that he just stood there and waved "good-bye" to all that money while he kept his integrity and stayed in the fellowship. And now the men who robbed him are out. Go figure.

Sarah · #3 01-26-2008, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais

I appreciate the reports but I have to agree with NW Pastor. Actions speak louder than words.

One thing that speaks loudly to me as well are the words that are said when people think no one else is listening. For most of my life in the UPC I sat and listened to some of the brothers who were at Tulsa as they said some of the most hateful things against their own brothers. Someone mentioned the recent "letter writers" and "how wrong they were..."

I remember one of those "letter writers" being mocked and cruelly belittled with some of the angriest and nastiest venom when I was being recruited to go to P.S.R. "It's the premier 'conservative' Apostolic conference..." they boasted. And then the discussion turned because of a book that was seen sitting out- a book by a particular author who had just started a home missions church in Texas.

That writer was called a "saint stealer" for accepting his own mother-in-law into his new church. And these guys don't want to split up families? The man who was speaking to us grew red in the face and raised his voice and bitterly denounced the brother. His own wife was trying to physically restrain his rage whenever that author's name came up. The hatred was livid. And make no mistake about it, it was hate.

And you know what? When pressed, that man confessed that he had never yet personally met the brother he was so angrily denouncing. He was just reciting the bile that had been regurgitated to him by others. That was my invitation to P.S.R. many years ago. And now many of the same cast of characters come forth, this time with meeker words. But is it the same spirit? Everyone seems to be trying a little too hard to convince themselves of something here.

1 John 4:20-21: "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also."

And the complaints about "changes" and "loss of standards?" Every time I ask about that people end up ducking behind the bush or running out of the room. Most of those complaints are like the "fog machines" at Youth Conference - they simply never existed. What we are dealing with is the long standing emnity and hatred that has so characterized our movement. And to be fair, the Baptists and and many other groups are just as bad, if not worse.

The last thing that W.T. Witherspoon said about his former PAJC fellowship concerned the "great spiritual struggle and the division among the brethren." Some of the first words he published as a new minister in the UPC were, "... as the falling away increases and men allow themselves to be possessed with a spirit of leadership and betrayal of their brethren, it is more and more necessary that we that we stand for the right."

Here's a question for you folks- have you ever been punched in the face by a brother in the Lord? Personally I've been physically attacked in churches. Anyone else? And I don't mean by a "sinner." I mean attacked by a Jesus name baptized, Holy Ghost filled - tongue talking saint of God and another time by a preacher. Have you ever had a brother or sister scream and curse at you? I've seen ministers swear like sailors, they were so angry at another preacher.

There's a lot of hate bottled up in our movement. Hate for one another. I remember seeing a friend loose $10,000's of dollars because a couple of other preachers got the board to rule against him in a matter. "That's it! We got rid of him now!" There was palapable glee.

But no, the man loved the UPC fellowship so much that he just stood there and waved "good-bye" to all that money while he kept his integrity and stayed in the fellowship. And now the men who robbed him are out. Go figure.

WOW........You've been through, and seen a lot, haven't you?

No, I've never seen anything remotely like you've described. And I've been in the church fifty years. I've seen disgruntled people, but nothing like that.

How terrible for you........God bless and keep you.

mizpeh · #4 01-26-2008, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais

I appreciate the reports but I have to agree with NW Pastor. Actions speak louder than words.

One thing that speaks loudly to me as well are the words that are said when people think no one else is listening. For most of my life in the UPC I sat and listened to some of the brothers who were at Tulsa as they said some of the most hateful things against their own brothers. Someone mentioned the recent "letter writers" and "how wrong they were..."

I remember one of those "letter writers" being mocked and cruelly belittled with some of the angriest and nastiest venom when I was being recruited to go to P.S.R. "It's the premier 'conservative' Apostolic conference..." they boasted. And then the discussion turned because of a book that was seen sitting out- a book by a particular author who had just started a home missions church in Texas.

That writer was called a "saint stealer" for accepting his own mother-in-law into his new church. And these guys don't want to split up families? The man who was speaking to us grew red in the face and raised his voice and bitterly denounced the brother. His own wife was trying to physically restrain his rage whenever that author's name came up. The hatred was livid. And make no mistake about it, it was hate.

And you know what? When pressed, that man confessed that he had never yet personally met the brother he was so angrily denouncing. He was just reciting the bile that had been regurgitated to him by others. That was my invitation to P.S.R. many years ago. And now many of the same cast of characters come forth, this time with meeker words. But is it the same spirit? Everyone seems to be trying a little too hard to convince themselves of something here.

1 John 4:20-21: "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also."

And the complaints about "changes" and "loss of standards?" Every time I ask about that people end up ducking behind the bush or running out of the room. Most of those complaints are like the "fog machines" at Youth Conference - they simply never existed. What we are dealing with is the long standing emnity and hatred that has so characterized our movement. And to be fair, the Baptists and and many other groups are just as bad, if not worse.

The last thing that W.T. Witherspoon said about his former PAJC fellowship concerned the "great spiritual struggle and the division among the brethren." Some of the first words he published as a new minister in the UPC were, "... as the falling away increases and men allow themselves to be possessed with a spirit of leadership and betrayal of their brethren, it is more and more necessary that we that we stand for the right."

Here's a question for you folks- have you ever been punched in the face by a brother in the Lord? Personally I've been physically attacked in churches. Anyone else? And I don't mean by a "sinner." I mean attacked by a Jesus name baptized, Holy Ghost filled - tongue talking saint of God and another time by a preacher. Have you ever had a brother or sister scream and curse at you? I've seen ministers swear like sailors, they were so angry at another preacher.

There's a lot of hate bottled up in our movement. Hate for one another. I remember seeing a friend loose $10,000's of dollars because a couple of other preachers got the board to rule against him in a matter. "That's it! We got rid of him now!" There was palapable glee.

But no, the man loved the UPC fellowship so much that he just stood there and waved "good-bye" to all that money while he kept his integrity and stayed in the fellowship. And now the men who robbed him are out. Go figure.

Do you recieve any comfort in knowing that the Judge of all the earth sees and knows these things? And there is nothing hid which will not be one day revealed and brought to the light? We reap what we sow....this is the patience of the saints.

FRINGE_NUTTER · #5 01-26-2008, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais

I appreciate the reports but I have to agree with NW Pastor. Actions speak louder than words.

One thing that speaks loudly to me as well are the words that are said when people think no one else is listening. For most of my life in the UPC I sat and listened to some of the brothers who were at Tulsa as they said some of the most hateful things against their own brothers. Someone mentioned the recent "letter writers" and "how wrong they were..."

I remember one of those "letter writers" being mocked and cruelly belittled with some of the angriest and nastiest venom when I was being recruited to go to P.S.R. "It's the premier 'conservative' Apostolic conference..." they boasted. And then the discussion turned because of a book that was seen sitting out- a book by a particular author who had just started a home missions church in Texas.

That writer was called a "saint stealer" for accepting his own mother-in-law into his new church. And these guys don't want to split up families? The man who was speaking to us grew red in the face and raised his voice and bitterly denounced the brother. His own wife was trying to physically restrain his rage whenever that author's name came up. The hatred was livid. And make no mistake about it, it was hate.

And you know what? When pressed, that man confessed that he had never yet personally met the brother he was so angrily denouncing. He was just reciting the bile that had been regurgitated to him by others. That was my invitation to P.S.R. many years ago. And now many of the same cast of characters come forth, this time with meeker words. But is it the same spirit? Everyone seems to be trying a little too hard to convince themselves of something here.

1 John 4:20-21: "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also."

And the complaints about "changes" and "loss of standards?" Every time I ask about that people end up ducking behind the bush or running out of the room. Most of those complaints are like the "fog machines" at Youth Conference - they simply never existed. What we are dealing with is the long standing emnity and hatred that has so characterized our movement. And to be fair, the Baptists and and many other groups are just as bad, if not worse.

The last thing that W.T. Witherspoon said about his former PAJC fellowship concerned the "great spiritual struggle and the division among the brethren." Some of the first words he published as a new minister in the UPC were, "... as the falling away increases and men allow themselves to be possessed with a spirit of leadership and betrayal of their brethren, it is more and more necessary that we that we stand for the right."

Here's a question for you folks- have you ever been punched in the face by a brother in the Lord? Personally I've been physically attacked in churches. Anyone else? And I don't mean by a "sinner." I mean attacked by a Jesus name baptized, Holy Ghost filled - tongue talking saint of God and another time by a preacher. Have you ever had a brother or sister scream and curse at you? I've seen ministers swear like sailors, they were so angry at another preacher.

There's a lot of hate bottled up in our movement. Hate for one another. I remember seeing a friend loose $10,000's of dollars because a couple of other preachers got the board to rule against him in a matter. "That's it! We got rid of him now!" There was palapable glee.

But no, the man loved the UPC fellowship so much that he just stood there and waved "good-bye" to all that money while he kept his integrity and stayed in the fellowship. And now the men who robbed him are out. Go figure.

Brother, I've not experienced all that you have (but some of it). I can say that NOTHING would surprise me anymore. The people who did this to you and the people who lied, stole and tried to destroy me will be judged by a just God. What God knows is not what people know. I waved "good bye" too and I am a better man for it.

OfInterest · #6 01-26-2008, 05:54 AM

Pelathais, what terrible experiences you have had. I hope you have found some sort of healing. I will pray for you. This man that you speak of..I don't believe he is truly a disciple of Jesus Christ according to John 13:35.

35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

This is how the world will know if we are truly disciples of Christ. All this other "hogwash" will still be hogwash. Hopefully the man in question has repented. God's grace is great enough for all of us.

I too have seen men who deemed themselves spiritual giants, act in immoral and unethical ways. It is so disheartening, disappointing, and can be depressing. We have to keep our focus on Jesus Christ and what He did for us and leave the rest of it to God. Truly, organizations are mostly for the birds. The local church is what really matters. Being accountable to the body of Christ where you are. If most of these folks spent a tenth of the time, money, and energy going to the plethora of conferences that now exist..(which is a joke)...if they spent that time ministering to the lost and hurting in their own community, and caring for those in their own church, they would not feel the need to go get refreshed at yet another conference. Things would be so exciting around their local church that "yet another conference" wouldn't have so much appeal.

That is my two cents anyway.

mizpeh · #7 01-26-2008, 08:02 AM

Pelathais,

You've had some horrible things done to you by some of those that name the name of Christ. But you seem to be lumping them, the men who have done harm to you and the name of Christ, all into one mold....the PAJC/UC mold. But there are some posters here who fit that mold, maybe not the epitomy of it, but who would lie within the confines of that mold who you have to admit are not in the same category as those who have injured you....CS and Steadfast come to mind. After many months of reading their posts I cannot lump them with the hateful men you have described in your post. These are sincere men who understand some things differently than others and hold to their beliefs. Just as we hold to ours.

Do you think of ALL the Tulsa men along the same lines as those whom you have known to have abused their position of authority in the past? I understand your skepticism but are you being unfair in your assessment of them? Time will tell and God knows all the intents of the heart. Maybe I'm misreading your posts, but all UC's are not evil and all Liberals are not good.