Tulsa Report Day 2

[Aquila]

I know of a pastor in Huber Heights OH who openly denied over the pulpit that he knew anything about his name being on the leadership list for the WWPF. Booker assured everyone in Tulsa that each man on the list was consulted and placed on the list with their full permission. Why have so many been so dishonest about their involvement in this new fellowship? You can't launch a church fellowship based on dishonesty.

[Sunni]

Errr...my sunny side has dissolved...

I accept that many of you have dissenting opinions about Tulsa... I even enjoy reading the viewpoints sometimes of the intelligent or common sense posters for either side...In addition, I highly respect ministers who send their cards to Hazelwood and now also those who mail to Tulsa...

However, those who claim to know the hearts of the Tulsa organizers are wrong- you do not. Many of us, however, know some or all of the Tulsa 6... (However on a different scale than those who claim to be their friends and then proceed to demolish their characters- Or those who do not judge, but think they can speak for them because they preached for them, or they spoke with them one time, or et. etc. etc. etc.)

Many of the Tulsa six are beloved Men of God...for a reason. Some of us, including me, have often sat with them, laughed with them, and even been pastored by them... To some of you, that apparently makes me a spiritual sissie under the leadership of a legalistic dictator... anyway....

I can say this about one of them in particular- he loves souls more than anyone I have ever known...I am a Bible College grad, and have been under many ministers, but he has taught me more than anyone about sacrifice and love for the lost. He has mentored my husband as he first ventured into ministry, and he built a church in a city without truth...he is not the only one. You do not know all their sacrifices...you do not know their relationship with God, you do not know their motives, and you certainly do not know their hearts!

There are saints that read these words (the Tulsa 6 have seen many souls saved under their ministries- do you doubt that?) and hurt to see the motives of men questioned so acidly. These are men who heard the cry of a city and answered; who sacrificed and gave years of their lives in storefront churches, working alternate jobs, raising families where they knew so few, and living for the weekend when maybe the waitress they invited and then laid beside their bed and prayed for that night would show up and fill an empty chair... You did not see the tears in their eyes as she prayed through to the Holy Ghost, and you did not hear the sobbing of intercessory pastor when he saw souls slide...

Some of these men are pastoring very obviously successful churches- how sad that you think that can be done by men who 'only desire power and prestige.' Power trips and prestige parties do not build churches...Can I get a true church planter to say "Amen"!? .... You may wonder at the reason they felt the need to step out, and you may even disagree- that is life- but apply some logic... A few of you seem to enjoy dissecting fictional hearts!

I know some of the men...They have EARNED my respect by their love for souls... A love that I have witnessed repeatedly first hand...I know them, but not their hearts- only God does... I do, however, know that I trust their hearts in this matter... You may not know them enough to trust their judgement- I understand that.

Just remember- some of the six are or have been pastors...with pastors' hearts...Organizations of WPF or UPC does not change the fact that they go home and sit at the sides of grieving families, they visit the sick, they pray for their sheep, they reach out even when they are weary, they keep pushing on for that next soul... THEY PASTOR...and when a man does that right, he earns the love of his saints and those he mentors... I do know personally, that some of these men are doing that right, witnessed by the love of their true friends and saints...

That speaks louder to me than any of you who 'claim' to know their hearts...

[Maple Leaf]

Originally Posted by Sunni

Errr...my sunny side has dissolved...

I accept that many of you have dissenting opinions about Tulsa... I even enjoy reading the viewpoints sometimes of the intelligent or common sense posters for either side...In addition, I highly respect ministers who send their cards to Hazelwood and now also those who mail to Tulsa...

However, those who claim to know the hearts of the Tulsa organizers are wrong- you do not. Many of us, however, know some or all of the Tulsa 6... (However on a different scale than those who claim to be their friends and then proceed to demolish their characters- Or those who do not judge, but think they can speak for them because they preached for them, or they spoke with them one time, or et. etc. etc. etc.)

Many of the Tulsa six are beloved Men of God...for a reason. Some of us, including me, have often sat with them, laughed with them, and even been pastored by them... To some of you, that apparently makes me a spiritual sissie under the leadership of a legalistic dictator... anyway....

I can say this about one of them in particular- he loves souls more than anyone I have ever known...I am a Bible College grad, and have been under many ministers, but he has taught me more than anyone about sacrifice and love for the lost. He has mentored my husband as he first ventured into ministry, and he built a church in a city without truth...he is not the only one. You do not know all their sacrifices...you do not know their relationship with God, you do not know their motives, and you certainly do not know their hearts!

There are saints that read these words (the Tulsa 6 have seen many souls saved under their ministries- do you doubt that?) and hurt to see the motives of men questioned so acidly. These are men who heard the cry of a city and answered; who sacrificed and gave years of their lives in storefront churches, working alternate jobs, raising families where they knew so few, and living for the weekend when maybe the waitress they invited and then laid beside their bed and prayed for that night would show up and fill an empty chair... You did not see the tears in their eyes as she prayed through to the Holy Ghost, and you did not hear the sobbing of intercessory pastor when he saw souls slide...

Some of these men are pastoring very obviously successful churches- how sad that you think that can be done by men who 'only desire power and prestige.' Power trips and prestige parties do not build churches...Can I get a true church planter to say "Amen"!? .... You may wonder at the reason they felt the need to step out, and you may even disagree- that is life- but apply some logic... A few of you seem to enjoy dissecting fictional hearts!

I know some of the men...They have EARNED my respect by their love for souls... A love that I have witnessed repeatedly first hand...I know them, but not their hearts- only God does... I do, however, know that I trust their hearts in this matter... You may not know them enough to trust their judgement- I understand that.

Just remember- some of the six are or have been pastors...with pastors' hearts...Organizations of WPF or UPC does not change the fact that they go home and sit at the sides of grieving families, they visit the sick, they pray for their sheep, they reach out even when they are weary, they keep pushing on for that next soul... THEY PASTOR...and when a man does that right, he earns the love of his saints and those he mentors... I do know personally, that some of these men are doing that right, witnessed by the love of their true friends and saints...

That speaks louder to me than any of you who 'claim' to know their hearts...

I liked this post so much that I read it twice, and I usually only skim long posts. Sunni has made an eloquent plea for a more careful handling of men's names and reputations and I agree with her. Some of the criticisms of the men involved in the Tulsa movement have crossed the line of Scripturally acceptable conversation. We may judge actions, but only God may judge the heart.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Maple Leaf

I liked this post so much that I read it twice, and I usually only skim long posts. Sunni has made an eloquent plea for a more careful handling of men's names and reputations and I agree with her. Some of the criticisms of the men involved in the Tulsa movement have crossed the line of Scripturally acceptable conversation. We may judge actions, but only God may judge the heart.

Maple Leaf said what I was going to say.

This statement seemed especially poignant:

"A few of you seem to enjoy dissecting fictional hearts!"

If there was half as much real discernment in our movement in real life as there is virtual discernment on the internet, the devil would have a bad day.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Maple Leaf said what I was going to say.

This statement seemed especially poignant:

"A few of you seem to enjoy dissecting fictional hearts!"

If there was half as much real discernment in our movement in real life as there is virtual discernment on the internet, the devil would have a bad day.

Great signature line, CS.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Great signature line, CS.

You are welcome to it if you want it.

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Maple Leaf said what I was going to say.

This statement seemed especially poignant:

"A few of you seem to enjoy dissecting fictional hearts!"

If there was half as much real discernment in our movement in real life as there is virtual discernment on the internet, the devil would have a bad day.

Yes, and that folksy little adage works both ways.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Yes, and that folksy little adage works both ways.

That's what I like about PP, you never know where he will land, nor from what direction he cometh!

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Yes, and that folksy little adage works both ways.

PP old Compadre, I didn't limit that "folksy little adage" to just one side of the proverbial fence.

I just posted a "folksy little adage."

How cool is that?

I had no idea I could do such a thing.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Maple Leaf

I liked this post so much that I read it twice, and I usually only skim long posts. Sunni has made an eloquent plea for a more careful handling of men's names and reputations and I agree with her. Some of the criticisms of the men involved in the Tulsa movement have crossed the line of Scripturally acceptable conversation. We may judge actions, but only God may judge the heart.

Good words.