Something I thought I would never see............

[kclee4jc]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

Sadly? Its sad when people begin to emphasize a relationship with God rather than trying to meet requirements? It was the Pharisees that demanded requirements to be met , rules to be followed. It was Jesus that encouraged His disciples to enter and maintain a relationship with God. Without having a relationship with God, the keeping of requirements is null and void.

Nicodemus was a teacher, a ruler among the Jews. Yet, he had no clue as to what it meant to be born again. He kept all the right rules, submitted to the right standards, yet he could not grasp the concept of having a personal relationship with the Lord. Now, THAT is sad. And whats even more sad is the fact that in all churches, including many Oneness churches, there is gross negligence on the part of the ministry to teach what is and what is not a true relationship with God. And the keeping of rules and standards is not necessarily the same as having a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

But I wil agree...there are requirements. There are standards. The Bible tells us what is required of us. But, we can cast out devils, and not truly know Him. We can give all we have to the poor, and still have nothing. We can keep every law, and still fall short. Thats where grace is found... in the relationship we have with God. Unless we abide in Him- have a relationship with Him- the best rule keeping we can do will end in a puff of smoke.

It has been a relationship with God that has led me to the belief in the standards i hold. We are a very conservative church (much more than most upci churches). This is not soemthing i am boasting of but i am using this to to say that being conservative in standards does not mean that we believe our savation is based on such. My pastor is constantly exorting us to pray, fast and read the Word of God and make these things a part of our daily life. He teaches much more on relationship than he does standards. Matter of fact he very seldom teaches on standards, but when he does he has already taught on relationship with God to such a degree that our hearts are prepared and yearning to do what is right. I am convinced that if we will seek God and truly yearn after Him, He will lead us to the same or at least very similar convictions. Throughout my walk with God i have been on many different planes and held various view points..but I have sought God and continued to move forward. At one point I had no problem with television...now i can see how it influenced me. Previously I had no problem with wedding bands..God has showed me that they are not pleasing to Him. At one point in my walk i was perfectly fine with the thought of broadcasting on television..now i see very clearly the dangers of such. At one point i considered baptism non-essential..now i understand that it is the name of JEsus Christ applied in baptism that remmits sins (this of course is void without repentance) . I do not judge someone who does not hold exactly the same convictions i do, because i believe we all may be at different levels in our walk. But if we are not moving in the same direction, then we are not being led by the same Spirit. Perhaps someone loves God but does not at this time have a conviction against worldly sports. I believe that they may be very much saved and very much seeking God. If that is the case, I believe with the right teaching and a heart that is desiring God sincerely, God will bring them to a place of such a conviction. Paul told the Corinthian church to speak the same things..it is reasonable to expect this because we should be being led by the same Spirit. But i do not judge another brother or sister who is being led by the same Spirit as myself but is simply on higher or lower plane than myself. And there are certainly many wonderful saints in both places.

[kclee4jc]

Originally Posted by jfrog

LOL! Sorry about that!

no worries..

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by kclee4jc

It has been a relationship with God that has led me to the belief in the standards i hold. We are a very conservative church (much more than most upci churches). This is not soemthing i am boasting of but i am using this to to say that being conservative in standards does not mean that we believe our savation is based on such. My pastor is constantly exorting us to pray, fast and read the Word of God and make these things a part of our daily life. He teaches much more on relationship than he does standards. Matter of fact he very seldom teaches on standards, but when he does he has already taught on relationship with God to such a degree that our hearts are prepared and yearning to do what is right. I am convinced that if we will seek God and truly yearn after Him, He will lead us to the same or at least very similar convictions. Throughout my walk with God i have been on many different planes and held various view points..but I have sought God and continued to move forward. At one point I had no problem with television...now i can see how it influenced me. Previously I had no problem with wedding bands..God has showed me that they are not pleasing to Him. At one point in my walk i was perfectly fine with the thought of broadcasting on television..now i see very clearly the dangers of such. At one point i considered baptism non-essential..now i understand that it is the name of JEsus Christ applied in baptism that remmits sins (this of course is void without repentance) . I do not judge someone who does not hold exactly the same convictions i do, because i believe we all may be at different levels in our walk. But if we are not moving in the same direction, then we are not being led by the same Spirit. Perhaps someone loves God but does not at this time have a conviction against worldly sports. I believe that they may be very much saved and very much seeking God. If that is the case, I believe with the right teaching and a heart that is desiring God sincerely, God will bring them to a place of such a conviction. Paul told the Corinthian church to speak the same things..it is reasonable to expect this because we should be being led by the same Spirit. But i do not judge another brother or sister who is being led by the same Spirit as myself but is simply on higher or lower plane than myself. And there are certainly many wonderful saints in both places.

For some reason it seems that you are saying that moving in the same direction should be rather linear in that we should both visibly be getting closer to the same. This is not so. There are an infinite number of paths and some of those paths will take us further away from agreement before they bring us into closer agreement. So at any moment in time we can be moving further apart but that moving further apart will in a broader sense be something that will eventually bring us closer together

Also I want to point out that the implications of your statement is that anyone who is not getting closer to what you are is not being led by the Spirit of God like you are... Surely you don't mean that!

[OneAccord]

Originally Posted by kclee4jc

It has been a relationship with God that has led me to the belief in the standards i hold. We are a very conservative church (much more than most upci churches). This is not soemthing i am boasting of but i am using this to to say that being conservative in standards does not mean that we believe our savation is based on such. My pastor is constantly exorting us to pray, fast and read the Word of God and make these things a part of our daily life. He teaches much more on relationship than he does standards. Matter of fact he very seldom teaches on standards, but when he does he has already taught on relationship with God to such a degree that our hearts are prepared and yearning to do what is right. I am convinced that if we will seek God and truly yearn after Him, He will lead us to the same or at least very similar convictions. Throughout my walk with God i have been on many different planes and held various view points..but I have sought God and continued to move forward. At one point I had no problem with television...now i can see how it influenced me. Previously I had no problem with wedding bands..God has showed me that they are not pleasing to Him. At one point in my walk i was perfectly fine with the thought of broadcasting on television..now i see very clearly the dangers of such. At one point i considered baptism non-essential..now i understand that it is the name of JEsus Christ applied in baptism that remmits sins (this of course is void without repentance) . I do not judge someone who does not hold exactly the same convictions i do, because i believe we all may be at different levels in our walk. But if we are not moving in the same direction, then we are not being led by the same Spirit. Perhaps someone loves God but does not at this time have a conviction against worldly sports. I believe that they may be very much saved and very much seeking God. If that is the case, I believe with the right teaching and a heart that is desiring God sincerely, God will bring them to a place of such a conviction. Paul told the Corinthian church to speak the same things..it is reasonable to expect this because we should be being led by the same Spirit. But i do not judge another brother or sister who is being led by the same Spirit as myself but is simply on higher or lower plane than myself. And there are certainly many wonderful saints in both places.

Brother, I appreciate and respect your convictions. In fact, I believe it is important that, as we strengthen our relationship with God, that we look inwardly for things that might hinder us in our wak with God. Paul told the Galations that they had run well, but then asked about the things that were hindering their progress. Admittedly, as I look inwardly, I see things hindering my walk with God. I see areas where I need to improve, grow stronger, and walk more consistently in the ways of the Lord. I think there would be something wrong with our relationship with God, if we didn't find areas that need to be improved upon. I was reading this earlier: Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. When we look to the Lord, He will give us the Light to see where we need to move closer to Him. And, I know I have some moving up to do. God bless you!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

Brother, I appreciate and respect your convictions. In fact, I believe it is important that, as we strengthen our relationship with God, that we look inwardly for things that might hinder us in our walk with God. Paul told the Galatians that they had run well, but then asked about the things that were hindering their progress. Admittedly, as I look inwardly, I see things hindering my walk with God. I see areas where I need to improve, grow stronger, and walk more consistently in the ways of the Lord. I think there would be something wrong with our relationship with God, if we didn't find areas that need to be improved upon. I was reading this earlier: Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. When we look to the Lord, He will give us the Light to see where we need to move closer to Him. And, I know I have some moving up to do. God bless you!

Excellent, OA! Thank you for encouraging kclee4jc and not questioning his personal convictions and decisions for his life!

[OneAccord]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Excellent, OA! Thank you for encouraging kclee4jc and not questioning his personal convictions and decisions for his life!

Well, thats from being a moderate, standing out here in the middle of the road. I'm not so liberal as to question his convictions and call them legalistic. And I'm not so conservative as to put down those that see them as legalistic. I'm just farmer trying to mind my own garden (re: a post from a few days ago).

[CC1]

Originally Posted by jfrog

First of all I'll give you the benefit of not thinking you meant ill by the bolded. Second, I want to say that kclee4jc has my respect. I don't agree with her and I even think God showed me different than he did her but she has my respect. So what's my problem with your post? Well it implies that kleec4jc isn't learning Christian principles and implementing them because she wants something EASIER. I mean wow! That's a big accusation. But I don't think you meant it to imply that... at least I hope you didn't!

Frogperson, you are correct that I did not mean ill by suggesting that this person, and many others, find the legalism of old time Pentecost comforting and easier than personally implementing Christian principles in their lives.

I do stand by the statement though and believe it 100%. Not an insult just something I consider a fact from almost 52 years of being in or around the UPC.

Most UPC folks I know can't fathom the concept of a preacher teaching principles in scripture and then allowing room for saints in their own study, prayer, and seeking God to apply them to their lives. They want that laundry list everybody has to line up with. Yes I think that is a comfort and easier than the way I described.

You cannot seperate the psychology of the human mind from the approaches different religious systems take. Old time Pentecost pounds extra biblical legalism into peoples heads then if they feel quilty about violating one of the rules that guilt is called conviction. I do believe in conviction but in old time Pentecost I believe the vast amount of the time what is called conviction is instead guilt from psychological conditioning.

[Hoovie]

Cc1, I like what Garrison Keillor said about sitting under the heavy burden of "all the guilt and shame one human being could possibly put on another". He said they found reprieve after such a harsh sermon in the sweet corn patch. They would would indulge in the lush pleasures of loads of freshly picked sweet corn to forget guilt! Funny!

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by CC1

Frogperson, you are correct that I did not mean ill by suggesting that this person, and many others, find the legalism of old time Pentecost comforting and easier than personally implementing Christian principles in their lives.

I do stand by the statement though and believe it 100%. Not an insult just something I consider a fact from almost 52 years of being in or around the UPC.

Most UPC folks I know can't fathom the concept of a preacher teaching principles in scripture and then allowing room for saints in their own study, prayer, and seeking God apply them to their lives. They want that laundry list everybody has to line up with. Yes I think that is a comfort and easier than the way I described.

You cannot seperate the psychology of the human mind from the approaches different religious systems take. Old time Pentecost pounds extra biblical legalism into peoples heads then if they feel quilty about violating one of the rules that guilt is called conviction. I do believe in conviction but in old time Pentecost I believe the vast amouont of the time what is called conviction is instead guilt from psychological conditioning.

I posted this picture on another thread. Is the professor embarrassed because he is the only one who forgot his duck? Or did God convict him for not bringing it? I believe that in nearly all cases, the answer is obvious.

[Pressing-On]

Margie,
Is this their church?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3lA0...layer_embedded