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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #61  
Old 05-16-2007, 12:38 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder View Post
1) Acts 2:14, men who're accused in court have to stand up to hear the charges. Those who were accused of being drunk stood up, to answer their critics, we read here that 12 and not 120 stood up to answer their accusers.
This wasn't court. If what you said is true then ALL 12 should have given a response, but only Peter spoke. That shows that even IF this was a court they did not all need to stand up as Peter was representing them all. So your argument falls flat for several reasons.

Quote:
2) Acts 2:43, I agree that this was spoken at a time after the 3,000 had been saved. However if these 3,00 had spoken in tongues, then this verse would have read; 'and many wonders and signs were done by the 3,120.' The use of the word 'apostles' here, limits the tongues at this time to just the 12 apostles.
Obfuscation. You used this argument to show that only 12 spoke in tongues at first and not 120. Yet you are admitting my argument that this was a while AFTER the events of Pentecost. This statement is also subsequent to the 3000 being saved too.

Lastly it does not say and ONLY the 12 did signs, wonders and miracles. It simply notes many signs and wonders were done by their hands...this AFTER the 3000 were saved
Act 2:43 And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles.

You seem to have trouble with grammar and the english language. If I said "Many discussions were had between Iron Bladder and Praxeas....Robert does that mean ONLY you and I were having discussions?? Answer that please.

Now go refute my points as you have not quoted me once and addressed each point specifically.
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  #62  
Old 05-16-2007, 12:42 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder View Post
Praxeas has quoted Luke 24:53: 'And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.' However, he's failed to understand the cultural context that men and women couldn't mix together in the temple as they did in at Acts 1:15, in the temple itself, men and women were always separated and so the 120 couldn't have been together (as the 120) in Acts 2 as he's claimed.
IB, prove it. 2, IB it still says those that were WITH them...with the 11. This is a group of well over 11. For it does not say "and him that was with them"...this group were continually in the temple praising God.
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  #63  
Old 05-16-2007, 03:00 PM
PaPaDon
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ALL who receive the "Gift" of the Holy Ghost WILL "speak in tongues"!

Robert.... as promised here is my response to your allegations regarding the "evidence" of one's receipt of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

First, allow me to inform you that I am one who trys to always be mindful of the consequences of the words I publish, whether written or oral, for I am fully aware of the fact that every idle word I utter must pass the scrutiny of our Lord. By our words we are to be either justified or condemned, and I choose that my words be placed in the former catergory rather than the latter. Having said this, I will tell you that I have given considerable thought to your words, and must tell you that I find them to be most grievous. Please continue reading what I have to say to you and hopefully you will understand why.

We find it written within the context of Psalm 89:14 and Psalm 97:2, in very explicit language, that God established "righteousness" as the fundamental guiding principle which dictates ALL aspects of His relationship with mankind. It might even be said God has decreed that this solitary principle would form the very foundation upon which His entire eternal kingdom would stand. Therefore, in consideration of this matter I believe it entirely appropriate, and altogether needful, that we pause to consider everything which the word "righteousness" encompasses.

A careful examination of the definition of this word reveals that at its most elementary meaning, "righteousness" signifies "equality of justice," or, in other words, "equal" treatment within the structure of the laws which God has set forth for His kingdom. This simply means that in every action which God has, or ever will undertake in relationships with mankind, His own established guiding principle of "righteousness" requires, yea, demands, that He always exercise "equality." Indeed, we witness the application of this “righteousness” at the beginning of God’s creation of man and his placement in the garden at Eden. Just as God created “evil” (see Isaiah 45:7), and subjected the angelic beings to it in a trial of their loyalty to Him (with eternal punishment as the penalty for their willful disobedience), we also find that God created the means whereby man’s loyalty to Him might be tested as well. This trial of mankind's loyalty to God was instituted when He created and placed within the pristine confines of the garde, the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil," and forbid man from partaking of its fruits to satisfy the natural desires of his fleshly body for the fruit of the ground that it might be sustained. “Righteousness,” which is to say “equality of justice,” demanded this action by God directed toward man, and just as it happened with the angelic beings rebellion against His authority, man also reaped the punishment of death for his willful disobedience.

Keeping this God ordained guiding principle at the forefront of our thoughts as we continue our examination regarding the number of those who “spake in tongues” on that first day of Pentecost following the bodily ascension of our Lord to His throne located in the heavens, please take note of the following questions tendered of God through the inspired writings of the prophet Isaiah which directly relate to this matter: (see Isaiah 28:9)

Whom shall he (God) teach knowledge?
And whom shall he (God) make to understand doctrine?

We find the answers within the context of this same passage:

…them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. (This means, in a manner of speaking, those who have matured to the point of being able to amass facts pertaining to a particular matter, and then finalize a responsible conclusion thereto – something that a child simply cannot do!)

These things are followed by a detailed description of the manner, or mechanism through which God has decreed that one’s “knowledge” regarding the “doctrines” found within His written Word is achieved: (see Isaiah 28:10)

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Now, please note special attention to the “means” through which God “speaks” to those whom He has taught “knowledge” and made to “understand doctrine:”

For with stammering lips AND another tongue (that is to say, “another language”) will he speak to THESE people, to whom he said, THIS (the means of “speaking in another tongue/language”) is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and THIS is the refreshing:

Does not these passages of Scripture explicitly assert that God has devised the means of speaking in tongues (i.e., another language), as the means of identifying those whom He has chosen as His own people? Is it not also proper to conclude that the speaking in tongues would be the universal/common sign which would be evidence of God’s seal of approval upon ALL those to whom He bestowed this honor? The answer, of course, must be a resounding yes!

How then is it possible for one to suggest/assert that ONLY the 12 chosen apostles were given this “sign” of approval on that occasion when the gift of the baptism of the Holy Ghost was first given to mankind as an ever-abiding presence within their mortal bodies? Would not such an allegation/assertion imply that ONLY the 12 apostles were accepted as adopted citizens of the kingdom of heaven, and that the remainder of the 120+ were not accepted? This is precisely what your statements concerning this matter appears to imply, therefore they MUST be refuted forthwith, for they are without scriptural support!

Either ALL who receive the wondrous gift of the baptism of the Holy Ghost WILL “speak in tongues,” or NONE will. And, when this marvellous gift was first given unto man, either ALL spake in tongues as the Spirit of God gave the utterance, or NONE did! It is truly that simple! Why? Because God’s own established guiding principle of righteousness demands it to be so! He CANNOT display a respect of persons by granting such an expression to one while denying it to all others, as your statements expressly allege.

I might also add that while there was a time in ages past, when there prevailed only one universal language (everyone commuincated in the same tongue), this was changed when mankind set out to construct the tower of Babel as a means of escape should God send forth another destructive flood upon the earth (this, of course, is something which He swore never to do again, but men seemed to be ignorant of that fact). So, would it not also seem entirely logical that God would employ the means of speaking in tongues as a unifying factor, just as He employed it as a disruptive one? I think so!

Now, with regards to your allegation that the 500+ people mentioned by apostle Paul in I Corinthians 15:6, MUST be considered as members of the Church, I believe that your conclusion is amiss. Paul does NOT assert, or even intimate in the slightest degree, that these individuals are members of the Church as you allege. In fact, we find it noted in many instances within the writings of the books comprising the New Testament, wherein Paul, as well as Peter and others, employed the word brethren when referring to their fellow Israelite. Although it is possible (and probable) that many of this 500+ did, in fact, become members of the Church at some later point in time, Paul’s referral to this group was intended to stress the number of people who witnessed the risen Saviour after His bodily resurrection from the dead. Paul’s mention of these folks has absolutely nothing to do with their membership in the church, and for this reason there was NO need for him to take note of their having received the gift of the Holy Ghost as evidenced by “speaking in tongues.”

I feel compelled to inform you that the statement, wherein you assert that you are a “former Oneness Pentecostal,” is most grievous to me, especially so because I am a “former Trinitarian” (for 48+ years, in fact). Are you yet ignorant of the fact that the revelation of the true identity of our Lord Jesus is the very foundation upon which the entire church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood has been established? Did not Christ Jesus inform Peter that this important fact was the rock (that is to say, solid, unchanging principle) upon which His church would be built? How is it possible for one who has been granted such a revelation, turn 180 degrees and then refute it? Would not such an act represent one’s destruction of the very foundation upon which their entire faith in God was built? I have not been a participant in internet forums for very long, however, I must inform you that your statement in this regards is truly the most grievous that I have ever witnessed! I fear for you!

Oh yes! I am confident that you will reject the things I have written, but remember this..... your rejection will NOT be restricted solely towards me, but of even greater import, it will be of the pure words of the LORD Himself, and for that there is NO defense!

I urge you to repent, and do so quickly!
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  #64  
Old 05-16-2007, 04:23 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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PapaDon,

I've been eagerly awaiting what your response would be to IronBladder and I wasn't disappointed.

I'd also like to know how you came to the reject Trinitarianism.
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  #65  
Old 05-16-2007, 05:06 PM
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Falla39 Falla39 is offline
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Only 12 spoke in tongues at Pentecost

Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
PapaDon,

I've been eagerly awaiting what your response would be to IronBladder and I wasn't disappointed.

I'd also like to know how you came to the reject Trinitarianism.
Knowing PaPaDon was formerly a trinitarian, and for forty-eight years at

that, knew he would be able to give an intelligent answer. And He did!

There was another man, who wrote a book about why he was not a

Pentecostal, supposely after having received the Holy Ghost and being

baptized in Jesus Name! There is something very wrong with this picture.

Babies are born sometimes but they die. Some are stillborn, and never

made a sound. Did something happened in the womb (church). There are

things that cause spontaneous miscarriages (abortions). Something went

wrong in the process of the baby developing in the womb. But when we

start hearing of those who claim to have been born of water and spirit and

having been enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and the powers

of the world to come, and then turn away. It is a fearful thing to fall into

the hands of the living God. (Heb. 10:31)

Then there could be a problem with the root system. Roots disturbed

sometimes cause trees and plants to die. Jesus said "Every plant my heavenly

Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up".

Paul also spoke of those "because they received not a love of the truth,

that they might be saved, And for this cause God shall send them strong

delusion, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be damned who

believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness".(IIThess.,in part,

2: 10-12)

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. also knowledge and under-

standing. The fear of man bringeth a snare (trap).

Just some serious thoughts!

Blessings,

Falla39
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  #66  
Old 05-16-2007, 08:45 PM
PaPaDon
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Rejection of Trinitarianism

Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
PapaDon,

I've been eagerly awaiting what your response would be to IronBladder and I wasn't disappointed.

I'd also like to know how you came to the reject Trinitarianism.
Mizpeh, thank you for your kind words. Pls allow me a few moments to give you just a brief synopsis of the underlying reason why I came to reject the Trinity doctrine after 48+ years of adherence thereto.

I was confronted with an accusation, by a UPCI minister who now happens to be my beloved Pastor, that my beliefs were not biblical sound and therefore I was NOT a true Christian. Needless to say, but this allegation was extremely stressful and troubling for me, for it was the religion of my beloved parents, who had gone to their graves fully expecting to receive the reward of eternal life at their resurrection. I did not choose to enter into a debate over this matter, electing instead to conduct an exhaustive, comprehensive search of the Bible to locate something which might prove my beliefs. Needless to say, after almost 3 years of daily searching the scriptures, I found that I was only becoming more weary.

Then one day it so happened that I pondered the words of our Lord Jesus, wherein He stated that one MUST become as a little child, else they could not SEE the kingdom of heaven. It was then that I realized that rather than trying to find something within the Bible to prove this allegation wrong, perhaps I should exert my best efforts instead to set aside, at least temporarily, everything that I had previously embraced as truth, and seek instead to determine the scriptural soundness of those allegations against such beliefs. It was then that God began to lead me to passages which quite literally "exploded" from the pages of my Bible, and not long afterwards lead me to the conclusion that the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues was a requirement of salvation.

Several unforseen, and totally unexpected events took place during this time which convinced me that all of my previously held beliefs contained various elements of error, and so it was that I elected to simply discard them altogether. I guess it could be said that God honored my faith in Him and the precepts of His written Word above the words of mortals, and truly has fulfilled even my wildest expectations since that time.

There is absolutely nothing I love more than God and the study of the great esoteric "mysteries" which pertain to Him and His eternal kingdom. I am irrevocably convinced that when one falls head-over-hills in love with Him, He reciprocates by opening the windows of heaven unto them. I am blessed to have been the recipient of such an abundance of blessing that I could never detail them all.

May the love of God and the ever-abiding peace of the Holy Ghost be with you always.

PaPa Don
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  #67  
Old 05-22-2007, 07:41 AM
Iron_Bladder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Lastly it does not say and ONLY the 12 did signs, wonders and miracles. It simply notes many signs and wonders were done by their hands...this AFTER the 3000 were saved
Act 2:43 And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles.



I don’t agree with Praxeas' claim, for how can the words; ‘and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles.’ really be referring to the 120 or to the 3,120 disciples as you’ve claimed when the text uses the word ‘apostles.’ Did the number of Apostles number 120 or 3,120 or just 12 on the day of Pentecost?

Secondly, yes, it does say that only 12 did the signs and wonders. By the way, if you quote the Bible please give the version from which your quoting.

Thirdly, yes Acts 2:43 happens after the 3,000 have been saved (in verse 41), but that’s my point, if everyone who was saved spoke in tongues, then the 3,000 converts would have spoken in tongues and so Acts 2:43 wouldn’t mention ‘apostles’ but a instead a number of 3,120 or 3,500; ‘And many wonders and signs were done by the 3,120.’ Because according to you, everyone who was saved spoke in tongues.
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  #68  
Old 05-22-2007, 07:48 AM
Iron_Bladder
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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
IB, prove it. 2, IB it still says those that were WITH them...with the 11. This is a group of well over 11. For it does not say "and him that was with them"...this group were continually in the temple praising God.



Any history book on the temple or map of the temple in the back of a Bible will tell you that men and women were kept separated within the temple precinct, so that by avoiding looking at each other they wouldn’t be tempted to at each other sexually. So the purpose of strict separation was to enable men and women to focus upon God in their prayers and not to be distracted by the other sex. This is so basic that I’m almost ashamed to have to tell you this, fancy not knowing this!
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  #69  
Old 05-22-2007, 07:49 AM
Iron_Bladder
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Firstly Doc, thank you for your detailed reply (post 63), I do appreciate your keeping your promise to me. Secondly, nevertheless, it’s poor hermeneutics to focus almost entirely upon the Old Testament, to the near exclusion of the New Testament. In Biblical hermeneutics we should instead use the NT to interpret the OT and never vice versa. Thirdly, I’ve seen absolutely no rebuttal to any of my major points, so please reply to the use of the word ‘apostles’ at Acts 2:43, ‘Peter and the 11’ rather than ‘Peter with the 119’ at Acts 2:14 and the Greek ‘ma pantes’ at 1st Corinthians 12:29-30 as well as the thief on the cross. Fourthly, you’ve dismissed 1st Corinthians 15:6 rather than disproved it. My point here was that because 500 people witnessed the resurrected Christ, these 500 people were saved, for how can this epistle be speaking of 500 people who witnessed Christ’s resurrection and yet remained lost and unbelievers in the resurrection. At the start of 1st Corinthians 15:2-4, we’re told that the resurrection is the single central most factor in believing the gospel, so in context verse 6 is telling us that these 500 who witnessed the greatest event in history are followers of Christ (saved). Finally, your lengthy post ducks every one of my key points. Debate involves facing your opponents best arguments, not ducking them and introducing more of your own, so please do try to engage with my arguments. Thanks Doc.
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  #70  
Old 05-22-2007, 07:51 AM
Iron_Bladder
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Originally Posted by Falla39 View Post
Paul also spoke of those "because they received not a love of the truth,

that they might be saved, And for this cause God shall send them strong

delusion, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be damned who

believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness".(IIThess.,in part,

2: 10-12)
Falla39



Are you saying that Trinitarianism is a strong delusion and that all Trinitarians are damned to hell? If that’s the case then are Luther, Bunyan, Spurgeon, Wesley and other greats of the faith truly lost and burning in hell? Please do have the honesty to answer this question Falla39, as frankly I’m shocked by the consequences of your claim. By the way whilst people such as the ranters and shakers (who believed that Mother Ann Lee was a reincarnated female Christ), as well as various Roman Catholic mystics have babbled in tongues until the 20th century there has never been any group throughout Church History which has taught all three of the key Oneness beliefs all together; (1) a form of Modalism, (2) baptism with a Jesus Christ formula and (3) speaking in tongues also being necessary for salvation.

Even the early 4th century modalists would fail to qualify as saved according to the vast majority of modern Oneness folk as they believed 1 but rejected 2 and 3. The ranters and the shakers rejected 1 and 2 but accepted 3 and the Bogomils accepted 1 but rejected 2 and possibly 3. Frankly, you need to face up to this major problem. If 1, 2 and 3 are all needed to be saved, then why Falla39 did absolutely nobody throughout Church history before 1913 teach all three of these doctrines together? By your own definition, the entire Christian Church would be lost and going to hell before salvation was first taught in 1913 with Shepp’s revelation? Now if that’s not a weird claim Falla39 then I really don’t know what is.
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