Prominent Memphis Area Pastor Resigns

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

I think the point that is being made isn't that it only happens BECAUSE they are conservative. Because we all know that it happens in all religions and conservatives to liberals.

What IS hard to reconcile with is a minister that preaches man-made standards as salvational, yet is breaking one of the Ten Commandments while stressing/preaching those man-made standards as a heaven/hell issue.

Hence the reason why I posted about Swami Nithyananda, he was charged with rape. Swamis aren't supposed to be raping anyone. The point I was making, was to answer the poster's charge against conservatives, and standards. Every religion should be judged by its best, not by its worst. Are all Roman Catholic priests molesting children? Do all Muslims want to kill Americans, Christians, and Jews? Ted Haggard preached against same gender marriages, but was caught smoking crack with his boyfriend, so does that mean protesting against same gender marriage is wrong? Or that because he protested against same gender marriage it caused him to become homosexual?

Presidents of the United States are supposed to be truthful (we would hope) yet Monica Lewinsky became famous and Bill Clinton lied straight face to the American people.

What about the guy who works on your car, and when it breaks down, and some other mechanic finds that nothing was ever done in the first place, was it because he was a conservative, no! It is because he failed in his job, he for whatever motivation didn't want to continue in the job description. So he left the drain plug out.

Listen it's hard to reconcile when anyone is supposed to be a professional, or a certain level of leadership, and they don't live up to their own standard of excellence. Whether it is your doctor, the car mechanic, the butcher, the baker or the candlestick maker. You expect them to deliver a product and set a certain standard, and when they fail, they have to face the wheel.

Still, my main point is, that this discussion about whether or not the brother preached standards, yet sinned is getting old, it happens in all religions, and cultures which have leaders, so let's sing another song, boys, this one has grown old and bitter.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Charnock

No, I don't. There is a pattern with ultracon Pentecostals.

Yeah, also there's a pattern with Muslims, so therefore keep an eye on them because they may secretly be wanting to kill you and your family. Oh, but watch out for the Catholic Priest he may be wanting to molest your kids, and the Jewish Rabbi is looking to scam you out of money. Again, people have bad experiences, and after those experiences they look at a group, and everyone who even resembles that group is blacklisted.

Getting old.

Originally Posted by Charnock

It's sort of like the shell game. All sorts of movement and slight of hand that serves to hide reality - you're a sinner, too.

So that's where we've come to?

Jesus is reduced to being just a band-aid on a bleeding bullet wound?

Incapable of really converting, but only freshly masking Jason Voorhees.

Swell.

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Yeah, also there's a pattern with Muslims, so therefore keep an eye on them because they may secretly be wanting to kill you and your family. Oh, but watch out for the Catholic Priest he may be wanting to molest your kids, and the Jewish Rabbi is looking to scam you out of money. Again, people have bad experiences, and after those experiences they look at a group, and everyone who even resembles that group is blacklisted.

Getting old.

So that's where we've come to?

Jesus is reduced to being just a band-aid on a bleeding bullet wound?

Incapable of really converting, but only freshly masking Jason Voorhees.

Swell.

Nice defense. "Everybody else is doing it, and we're no different."

Except that's not how APOs represent.

Standards are supposed to keep us from this stuff. The "Holy Ghost" is supposed to make a difference. We've built fences. We're separate. Called out. Distinct.

Heck, we're just BETTER than all those other so-called Christians.

At least until we can't keep our pants zipped and legs closed.

Then we're human "just like everyone else."

You're doctrine and lifestyle is a sham. Legalism highlights our humanity and sinfulness but it does nothing to make us better, and it certainly has never saved one lost soul.

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Still, my main point is, that this discussion about whether or not the brother preached standards, yet sinned is getting old, it happens in all religions, and cultures which have leaders, so let's sing another song, boys, this one has grown old and bitter.

Bitter? No. Somewhat vindicated? Yes.

Typically, legalists leave a trail of tears which stretches well into previous decades. They determine who may be used, who is saved, and who is lost based upon visible measurements which are arbitrarily applied depending upon relationships.

Always they hurt. Always they divide. Always they abuse. Pillage.

This is all accomplished via uncontrolled tongues which are used to defame and malign good men and women who express minute theological differences.

And, in many cases, they live in gross sin the entire time they engage in personal destruction.

[tv1a]

I wonder if EB would be as quick to defend the charismatic ministers who sin with the same passion he does defending the legalists. The street runs both ways.

[Sister Alvear]

The truth is: people from all walks of life..err....

[houston]

Originally Posted by tv1a

The street runs both ways.

That was his point.

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by tv1a

I wonder if EB would be as quick to defend the charismatic ministers who sin with the same passion he does defending the legalists. The street runs both ways.

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

The truth is: people from all walks of life..err....

But that's not we've been told.

We've been told that lines and fences make a difference.

You cannot logically espouse both positions at the same time.

If standards are powerful, and keep us from sin, then it stands to reason that this sort of stuff would never happen - especially among the very men who've created the lines and fences.

We've all heard...

• When a church loses standards it loses the power and favor of God.
• People who don't follow standards are loose, and sinful.
• Obedience to a pastor's standards builds a hedge from sin.
• You can't be saved without holiness (read "standards").

This is a man who firmly believed Lee Stoneking's tripe about the power of a woman's long, uncut hair. His church embraced the doctrine.

The doctrine states that a man and a church are protected so long as the women of the church keep the scissors out of their hair.

Protected from what? At various times LS and Ruth Reider Harvey have posited that uncut hair guarantees protection from adultery, accidents and other calamities.

In the end we see the foolishness of standards preaching. It creates a false sense of security based upon what we do. Instead, we should distrust our own heart and lean on Jesus to protect and keep us from evil.

This all leads back to a distorted soteriological baseline. Measurements save instead of Jesus. We lean to our own understanding rather than trust Him to direct our paths.

In the end, we fail. Miserably. Repetitively.

I truly wish those of you who so vehemently state "it happens among all groups" now would remember this, going forward, as you preach and teach.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Charnock

But that's not we've been told.

We've been told that lines and fences make a difference.

You cannot logically espouse both positions at the same time.

If standards are powerful, and keep us from sin, then it stands to reason that this sort of stuff would never happen - especially among the very men who've created the lines and fences.

We've all heard...

• When a church loses standards it loses the power and favor of God.
• People who don't follow standards are loose, and sinful.
• Obedience to a pastor's standards builds a hedge from sin.
• You can't be saved without holiness (read "standards").

This is a man who firmly believed Lee Stoneking's tripe about the power of a woman's long, uncut hair. His church embraced the doctrine.

The doctrine states that a man and a church are protected so long as the women of the church keep the scissors out of their hair.

Protected from what? At various times LS and Ruth Reider Harvey have posited that uncut hair guarantees protection from adultery, accidents and other calamities.

In the end we see the foolishness of standards preaching. It creates a false sense of security based upon what we do. Instead, we should distrust our own heart and lean on Jesus to protect and keep us from evil.

This all leads back to a distorted soteriological baseline. Measurements save instead of Jesus. We lean to our own understanding rather than trust Him to direct our paths.

In the end, we fail. Miserably. Repetitively.

I truly wish those of you who so vehemently state "it happens among all groups" now would remember this, going forward, as you preach and teach.

Thank you for this post. I couldn't have said the above any better.



When Apostolics fall, it is sad and there is a part of me that becomes synical-- feels like death.

Finding myself angered by legalism and the results and at the same time sympathetic to legalists and their way of living creates a conundrum inside me that I don't think will ever be solved in this life.

I hate to hear about Apostolics falling. When Apostolics fall, their is a gnawing inside, a wringing of my heart as I try to reconcile my perception of Apostolics being closer to God in general, holier in general, praying more in general and the reality that the differences between them and my current Trinitarian fellowship is only church doctrine deep.

[StillStanding]

Since there seems to be little difference when it comes to moral failings, what is the purpose of holiness "standards"? They apparently don't stop a wandering eye or unmoral thoughts and actions!