Right, that argument can be made as well. So if we don't have a choice then we're just preprogrammed bio-bots. I don't see how God gets any glory from that. And of course that's the view of God that has caused many to reject Christianity.
Predestination doesn’t teach that mankind is a preprogrammed bio-bot. In fact, it affirms God’s sovereignty with regards to His will and purpose. This doesn’t negate man’s free will, it only expresses the idea that in the end… God’s will triumphs in all things to bring about exactly what He desires. In other words… not only does man have free will… an Almighty Sovereign God does too! For example, Saul was on the road to Damascus, enroute to persecute Christians. But God, through Christ, shows up and rocks Saul’s world to bring Saul into compliance with God’s purpose for His life…
Acts 9:1-9 (KJV)
9 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
Notice something, Saul was on his way to persecute the church. However, God had a different plan. In fact, Paul wrote of God’s will and destiny regarding his calling:
Galatians 1:15-16
King James Version (KJV)
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
On the road to Damascus the free and human will of Saul collided with the sovereign and all-powerful will of God. God knocked Saul off his horse and appeared to him in the glorified radiance of Jesus Christ. Jesus says something that most don’t really pay attention to. Jesus said, “I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.” Few know what this truly means. You see, oxen were used to work the soil. The prick or goad was a necessary devise. The prick was usually a wooden shaft with a pointed spike (prick) at one end. The man working the ox would position the goad in such a way as to exert influence and control over the ox. You see, if the ox refused the command indicated by the farmer, the goad would be used to jab or prick the ox. Sometimes the ox would refuse this incentive by kicking out at the prick. As result, the prick would be driven deeper into the flesh of the rebellious animal. The more the animal rebelled, the more the animal suffered. Hence, the statement to Saul: "It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." Saul was rebelling against God, God had no doubt been drawing Saul and Saul was using his “free will” to resist. As a result, Saul got knocked off his horse, was personally confronted by the Lord Himself, and was then blinded! God knows exactly how to bring a rebellious elect child to the end of himself, even if it takes the most drastic of measures! Saul’s “free will” was broken as it collided with God’s sovereign and predestined plan for him. God knew it would take this. And God timed it just right. Everything according to divine plan. Notice… Saul had free will… but so did our Sovereign and All-Powerful GOD.
Quote:
In demonstrating his love and desire to have a relationship with his creation God actually subordinated his sovereignty to allow us a choice.
God will NEVER subordinate His sovereignty to man’s choices. Even when God permits a man's choices to affect creation, it is in accordance to God's sovereign divine plan. God subordinating His sovereignty and providence to the will of man would lead to absolute chaos. Is God the author of confusion? Nope. Imagine, in your view… Saul could have still resisted God. Would God have a “plan B”? Might Saul have already been a “plan E”??? How many Epistles should have been written by how many people who resisted??? What if God willed to save a man, and that man resisted and resisted and finally decided that it’s okay to serve God now. Then, another man, in his free will, gets into his car drunk on the same night the first man is on his way to church and BAM!, they crash into one another killing both! Poor God… I guess He really wanted that man saved… and finally got through to him…only to have another man’s free will hijack the whole plan.
God’s plan is working in perfect precision. The elect are being saved. And it is to reach the elect that we preach.
I believe things that make sense, and have good evidence.
You belong to a religion that has tenets such as "believe this -- or else", "lean not on your own understanding", and "God's ways are not our ways". In other words, what you believe doesn't have to make sense, to you or to anyone. It can defy logic. It can make any claims it wants to, and you must believe it.
No thanks.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I believe things that make sense, and have good evidence.
You belong to a religion that has tenets such as "believe this -- or else", "lean not on your own understanding", and "God's ways are not our ways". In other words, what you believe doesn't have to make sense, to you or to anyone. It can defy logic. It can make any claims it wants to, and you must believe it.
No thanks.
But you do believe in some sort of 'God' or supernatural, spiritual existence, don't you?
I believe things that make sense, and have good evidence.
You belong to a religion that has tenets such as "believe this -- or else", "lean not on your own understanding", and "God's ways are not our ways". In other words, what you believe doesn't have to make sense, to you or to anyone. It can defy logic. It can make any claims it wants to, and you must believe it.
No thanks.
You have a perfect right to believe what you choose to believe. I think we we both agree that your belief does not automaticaly negate my belief and that my belief does not automaticaly negate your belief. I think that we could also agree that one of us is right and that the other is wrong though we would disagree as to which is which lol.
I do not think that anything I believe defies logic but such is the path of belief.
Not necessarily. I may agree with the five points to some degree. However, I interpret them differently than most monergists. I believe that irresistible grace can be brutal (if it exists).
However, I do believe in predestination. I also believe in free will. I also believe that a natural tension must exist between the two ideas to some degree given temporal vs. eternal perspective. While trapped in time, to our perception we make choices and decisions. From an eternal perspective that exists transcendent of time itself, all our choices and decisions have already taken place. They were permitted by God. Some events are definitely appointed and unstoppable. For example, the crucifixion. Paul's calling is another great example. I find great peace in believing predestination. It demonstrates that God has not abandoned us to the chaos and confusion of life. But rather, God has ordained what is to be, and appointed what must take place for a greater purpose and plan. I also realize that my witness goes forth to reach the elect... I'm not trying to convince people... Christ's sheep hear His voice, and He calls them by name. I may be one of many voices reaching to an elect soul... that will one day surrender under the power of God's irresistible grace at the appointed time.
I could be wrong. I defend it strongly, but I'm not as dogmatic as I might sound. It makes more sense to me than a God who peeps into the future and tailors His plans and will around ours. And when things go crazy in my life... I realize that it was preordained. It serves a purpose. The purpose normally to aid in conforming me into the image and likeness of Jesus. I trust in that I cannot add a single span or day to my life and that all my ways are in the palm of His hand. He is not betting on me, or hoping that I'll make it. He has chosen me. And He will bring me home... even if He has to break me to do so.
The question often asked of me is regarding our free will. I do believe in free will. However... my question is... Does God have free will? He's all knowing and all powerful. He is in absolute control and is the creator. He has a sovereign will and plan to redeem a remnant according to the election of grace. Does He not have free will to execute His desires???
So, in essence, the predestination I believe in is not relegating man to being mere "preprogrammed bio-bots". But rather, it is in the defense of God's free will and absolute authority.
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