Tithing…Is it a command?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

The Holy Ghost was telling you to repent, and you would not listen. The Holy Ghost was telling you that if you did not repent of your idolatry, you would indeed split Hell wide open. This will probably be my last posting on this matter... probably. But, listen to what I say. Leaders do not hate non-tithers, but try to warn them against their sins. Non-tithers do hate godly leadership when they refuse to tithe, because they are not against men, but God. When you hold something back from what God has commanded, you rob God. Non-tithers rob God.

Do you have anything to offer besides the oft repeated rhetoric? At least Samaritan is discussing and engaging. I thought you had quit with all the flip flop and were going to learn from your past experiences but instead you are making the same mistake again. What in a year or two are you going to again apologize for the way you treated others? Are you with Reckhart again? I think you can be a likeable enough guy but you're not qualified for ministry in a formal sense. Before you condemn everyone else to hell over non essentials why not just pull back on the reigns.

We're attempting to discuss SCRIPTURE do you have anything to add? So far you've brought nothing.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Sean

I finally took time to catch up with the posts again. I have to say that what I have read from the anti-tithers is very telling. I see problems with rebellion, a desire to be in control over every aspect of their lives, and a true hatred for leadership. Oh, you may say that you do none of these things, but the spirit behind your posts tell a very different story. QUOTE UnTraditional



The reality is the "leadership" hates the non-tither. They actually send us to hell in their speech. If you dont think that is hatred, you dont know what hate is. Can you just imagine someone wanting you to burn in a superheated fire pit that is pitch black, feeling horrendous pain and fear. They , without ANY N.T. scriptural backing, send us to hell like the Popes of the dark ages. They want to make us pay dearly for not coughing up or tenth(plus offering) to their agenda.

I sat on a couch with a pastor, discussing this subject ever so gently with him, when he saw that I carefully corrected him about Heb. 7:5, he said to me with a DARK ANGRY LOOK IN HIS EYES...."Sean, if you dont pay your tithes you will split hell wide open". This man, that was very healthy and strong soon after developed cancer and I was standing at his graveside in less than 2 years later.

What do you think the Holy Ghost told me standing there at that time?...I will let you take a guess.

I don't think any child of God hates anyone. We may not agree on everything, but that should make us work harder to stay in good relationship with one another. Friends there have been divisions in the church for as long as church has been. I don't think the answer is going around challenging the leadership of churches everywhere we go.

If I disbelieve something a local pastor teaches I probably wouldn't even confront him. It would have to be God. Or we walking in the First Baptist Church and openly challenging them on water Baptism or eternal security. Most probably do not. I hope you are not being boasting of someone dying of cancer. I doubt very much that he died of cancer because of a conversation that went array one night on the couch.

Not to mention, I have seen many debate things back and forth until someone gets angry. If I poke at someone enough I will eventually get an ugly response. I believe the adversary is the author of that not God. Even this thread if someone is offended they would be just shake the dust off their feet and move on.

I enjoy this thread and others like because I care what others think. In ways I think that both sides are right. In our daily walk though, we must seek unity and that doesn't mean we'll agree on every biblical subject.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Do you have anything to offer besides the oft repeated rhetoric? At least Samaritan is discussing and engaging. I thought you had quit with all the flip flop and were going to learn from your past experiences but instead you are making the same mistake again. What in a year or two are you going to again apologize for the way you treated others? Are you with Reckhart again? I think you can be a likeable enough guy but you're not qualified for ministry in a formal sense. Before you condemn everyone else to hell over non essentials why not just pull back on the reigns.

We're attempting to discuss SCRIPTURE do you have anything to add? So far you've brought nothing.

Since I am not a flip floper on tithes and I have never had any Reckhart connection, and I have never mistreated or send anyone to hell for not believing in the tithe.

why does your crowd rejects my arguments for tithing.

This reminds me of Jesus saying
"We have piped for you and you have not danced
we have mourned for you and you have not lamented"

For UnTraditional came teaching the tithe in a harsh way and you have not accepted it
And FlamingZword came teaching the tithe in a soft way and you have not accepted it.

We can tell you about the tithe in happy ways and you refuse it.
we can tell you about the tithe in sad ways and you refuse it.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Since I am not a flip floper on tithes and I have never had any Reckhart connection, and I have never mistreated or send anyone to hell for not believing in the tithe.

why does your crowd rejects my arguments for tithing.

This reminds me of Jesus saying
"We have piped for you and you have not danced
we have mourned for you and you have not lamented"

For UnTraditional came teaching the tithe in a harsh way and you have not accepted it
And FlamingZword came teaching the tithe in a soft way and you have not accepted it.

We can tell you about the tithe in happy ways and you refuse it.
we can tell you about the tithe in sad ways and you refuse it.

FZ whether it doesn't matter if its taught harshly or softly, thundered from a pulpit or sung in a nursery rhyme, he argument has ZERO merit.

You do realize that none of the apostles taught tithing don't you? You do realize that the early church didn't teach tithing. And you do realize that while you reject the trinity and baptism in the titles because they are supposed to have originated at the Councils of Nicea (325) and Constantinople (381) both of which were ecumenical councils, that tithing wasn't even suggested until well after the Roman Catholic Church became institutionalized and had a huge problem supporting their over head and so at the Council of Tours (587) the "church" voted to use the tithing model from the Old Testament to support the hierarchy of the catholic church. Yet even then this was suggested, it was not a requirement. As Kenneth Scott-Lattourette writes in his The History of Christianity vol.1, it wasn't until well into the middle ages that tithing became universal in all the areas under Roman Catholic control (my memory is failing me, I can't remember if he said 11th,12th, or 13th century-but regardless, it was well after the first century). And even then when tithing began to be practiced it was much more agricultural at first and evolved into money as time went on.

Phillip Schaff wrote a History of the Christian Church, 8 volumes, over 7,000 pages. I have not read all of it, but I have read volume 1 & 2 (about 1900 pages) and there is nothing about the early church giving tithes.

David K Bernard wrote "A History of Christian Doctrine" in 3 Volumes. I have read all three volumes twice, and read volume 1 another time. Bernard mentions hardly anything about tithing and certainly makes no argument for tithing.

So am I saying Church History is equal to scripture? Not at all. My main point is scripture doesn't teach tithing as 1)money 2)for new covenant believers and 3)outside of the Promised Land and 4)in the absence of a Tabernacle/Temple and Levitical priesthood.

scripture doesn't teach tithing, AND in addition to that my secondary point is NEITHER does church history. Now ins't that a coincidence?

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

scripture doesn't teach tithing

Actually the scriptures have whole chapters teaching tithing.
perhaps you need to rephrase your phrase.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Sean

I will NEVER stop exposing false doctrine.

How do you know it is false doctrine? Perhaps it is true doctrine, that you simply refuse to believe?

If a person can defend their position better than I can, shame on me. If I can defend my position better than they can, shame on them.

What if this person is a new Christian who just begun in the Christian walk? or a Christian who does not have proper training in studying the word?

It's not wrong to show someone the error of their way.

So it is not wrong for me to show you the error of your way? Thank you

Sometimes you must call someone a LIAR to get their attention.

So it is OK for me to call you a LIAR to get your attention? Nice attention getter, so you do condone lying? but if you are being truthful, then wouldn't that make me a LIAR? a pious lie?

Jesus did....
Jesus lied? well that is news to me. Interesting, I thought that Jesus never lied?

Thats how we get each other into heaven.

So we get each other into heaven by calling each other liars? Would not lying actually get you out of heaven?

It all depends on the man's response. If I grabbed someone by the shoulders and yelled at them to stop watching porn, there can be 2 types of responses...
#1...The person could get pushed out of shape, offended and reject my exhortation, saying..."how dare you get in my business".

Or

#2....The person could humble themselves and see the Lord through me yelling at them to get their attention, to keep them out of hell and eternal shame.

what if the poor person is blind? why would you yell at people, is that man deaf?

Again, if anyone is teaching false doctrine, they will be LOST for eternity. They must get as serious as cancer with this Bible and teach exactly like the Apostles. If not, the Apostles doctrine will TESTIFY against them in eternity!

Again are you sure every single doctrine you have is completely and totally true? Are you sure you have no errors whatsoever in your theology?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Actually the scriptures have whole chapters teaching tithing.
perhaps you need to rephrase your phrase.

You are correct. I will rephrase:

If we were Jews living in Israel and we made a living off the land (through crops or herds) and there was a Temple and a pure Levitical priesthood, then YES we would have an obligation, yea, a God given command to tithe.

But since none of those things apply, to say nothing of the Messiah who has now come, we Gentiles living under the New Covenant have no scriptural command to tithe, much less to tithe money.

Just to clarify.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

You are correct. I will rephrase:

If we were Jews living in Israel and we made a living off the land (through crops or herds) and there was a Temple and a pure Levitical priesthood, then YES we would have an obligation, yea, a God given command to tithe.

But since none of those things apply, to say nothing of the Messiah who has now come, we Gentiles living under the New Covenant have no scriptural command to tithe, much less to tithe money.

Just to clarify.

1 Cor 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

There may be no NT command to pay ten percent of your income. There is a NT command to give as you have prospered and I believe that is more than a buck a week. That is fine not to say ten percent, but you would be wrong to make people think that they have a pardon not to be faithful with there finances.

I've said before, and I'll say it again, "you don't have to keep up with it and say you tithe, but if you are serving God, your giving will far exceed ten percent." You can find many times were Jesus commanded someone to give all, and many times people gave all. That is really NT examples. Any takers?

I'll not judge non-tithers, but I can acknowledge the fact that some are non-givers. I am not a rich pastor trying to get more out of the church, I have tried to always practice what I preach regardless of who was the beneficiary. I have always supported my family outside of the church and I don't feel like anyone owes me anything.

I would preach the rest of my life regardless if I ever received a penny from the churches that I've labored. Why? because I couldn't be happy if I wasn't preaching. I love the work of God and the greatest reward is to see souls saved. I am baptizing someone tomorrow in the name of Jesus and that is far greater than any dollar amount. Those who think they should only give to the poor you are missing a blessing. Bless the work of God and see for yourself!!!!

[UnTraditional]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Do you have anything to offer besides the oft repeated rhetoric? At least Samaritan is discussing and engaging. I thought you had quit with all the flip flop and were going to learn from your past experiences but instead you are making the same mistake again. What in a year or two are you going to again apologize for the way you treated others? Are you with Reckhart again? I think you can be a likeable enough guy but you're not qualified for ministry in a formal sense. Before you condemn everyone else to hell over non essentials why not just pull back on the reigns.

We're attempting to discuss SCRIPTURE do you have anything to add? So far you've brought nothing.

Do you love God enough to put Him first, even in your finances? Yes or no.

[Rudy]

U.T. can a person attend your church without tithing money?