Scoffers on AFF

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The guy is arguing in the debate forum how Jesus is NOT God, and now apparently he doesn't know Jesus resurrected? Looks like a cult in the making...

But, who would hang around him long enough to join?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

No, no, come back, please show where the Apostles were called fathers.

Okay preterists, this commentary may help you understand also......


Since the fathers fell asleep.—What fathers are meant? Four answers have been given to this question: (1) The ancestors of the human race; (2) the patriarchs and prophets; (3) the first generation of Christians; (4) each generation of men in relation to those following. Probably nothing more definite than our remote ancestors is intended. The expression “fell asleep” is used of St. Stephen’s death in Acts 7:60 (comp. Matthew 27:52; 1Corinthians 7:39, where the word is not literally translated; 1Corinthians 15:6; 1Corinthians 15:18, &c). The thoroughly Christian term “cemetery” (=sleeping-place), in the sense of a place of repose for the dead, comes from the same Greek root.

There is a passage quoted by Clement of Rome (circ. A.D. 100) which seems at first sight to contain a reference to this verse: “Far be from us this Scripture where He saith, Wretched are the double-minded, who doubt in heart and say, These things we heard in the times of our fathers also, but behold, we have grown old, and none of them has happened to us” (Epistle to the Corinthians, xxiii.). But the remainder of this “Scripture,” as quoted by Clement, is so utterly unlike the verse before us, that one suspects some other source. And this suspicion is confirmed when we find the same passage quoted in the so-called Second Epistle of Clement (xi.) as “the prophetic word.” (See on 2Peter 1:19 and on 2Peter 2:9). The differences between the two quotations are such that the pseudo-Clement appears to be quoting independently, and not merely borrowing from the true Clement. In neither case does close inspection encourage us to believe that our present verse is the source of the quotation. But the quotation by the true Clement is important as a complete refutation of the objection that “the fathers” means the first Christians, and consequently no such scoffing argument as this would be possible in the lifetime of St. Peter This very argument was not only in existence, but was condemned in a document which Clement before the close of the first century could quote as “Scripture.” Comp. Epistle of Poly carp, chap. vii.: “Whosoever perverts the oracles of the Lord to his own lusts, and says there is neither resurrection nor judgment, he is the firstborn of Satan.”

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...4OjPZQLPnQDKcQ

[Sean]

for since the fathers fell asleep] Ordinarily, the “fathers,” as in Romans 9:5, would carry our thoughts back to the great progenitors of Israel as a people. Here, however, the stress laid by the mockers on the death of the fathers as the starting-point of the frustrated expectation, seems to give the word another application, and we may see in the “fathers” the first generation of the disciples of Christ, those who had “fallen asleep” without seeing the Advent they had looked for (1 Thessalonians 4:15); those who had reached the “end of their conversation” (Hebrews 13:7). The scoffers appealed to the continuity of the natural order of things. Seed-time and harvest, summer and winter, followed as they had done from the beginning of the creation. In the last phrase we may trace an echo of Mark 10:6; Mark 13:19. “You have told us,” they seem to have said, “of an affliction such as there has not been from the beginning of the creation, and lo! we find the world still goes on as of old, with no great catastrophe.” The answer to the sneer St Peter gives himself, but it may be noted that the question of the scoffers at least implies the early date of the writings in which the expectation of the Coming is prominent.

In the use of the verb to “fall asleep” for dying, we are reminded of our Lord’s words “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth” (John 11:11); of St Paul’s “many sleep” (1 Corinthians 11:30). So in Greek sculpture Death and Sleep appear as twin genii, and in Greek and Roman epitaphs nothing is more common than the record that the deceased “sleeps” below. Too often there is the addition, as of those who were without hope, “sleeps an eternal sleep.” In Christian language the idea of sleep is perpetuated in the term “cemetery” (κοιμητήριον = sleeping-place) as applied to the burial-place of the dead, but it is blended with that of an “awaking out of sleep” at the last day, and even with the thought, at first seemingly incompatible with it, that the soul is quickened into higher energies of life on its entrance into the unseen world.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...4OjPZQLPnQDKcQ

[Sean]

Verses that prove the Apostles/ elders were considered "spiritual" fathers...



Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;

Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord....

For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.....

To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.....

Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children....

I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.....

For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
.....

[Sean]

And yes, the apostle Peter knew he would die(sleep) prior to the end of the age....


John 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

[Sean]

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep(Peter included himself), all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.




Peter says that in the Last Days, before the return of Jesus Christ, scoffers would come and say the founders of Christianity died(including Jesus), and nothing has changed from the beginning of time.

We clearly see that idea perpetuated in this generation, with the belief in the theory of evolution etc..

[J.A. Perez]

Sean,

If that was read and considered, we would all have to agree that you have a good point.

But unfortunately since Clement and Polycarp were not preterist.

The preterist on this forum will not except their 1st hand account.

Even though they were disciples of the apostles, and their sons in the gospel.

Jmho

[ApostolicKitty]

Originally Posted by houston

Can it become a requirement that men take a minimum of 2 years college before they become a preacher. Please. Thanks.

Why? Don't you know a college education doesn't make anyone any less stupid?

[houston]

Originally Posted by ApostolicKitty

Why? Don't you know a college education doesn't make anyone any less stupid?

So at least we know they tried to gain some critical thinking skills.

[houston]

And maybe they'd find something they'd rather do than to enter the ministry.