Scoffers on AFF

[shazeep]

good analogy

Sean, I'm passing curious now, how Posterists interpret this passage? ty
1And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Sean still failed to produce any scripture where the apostles were called the fathers. Sorry, but you have failed like you have in every single thread you have entered and posted your mythology.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

If this was a requirement then almost none of the apostles would have been apostles. Most of the apostolic fathers and early church pioneers that brought us this wonderful truth in America were not college-educated. They were just anointed and called of God.

That's why you are not a preacher

That wasn't very nice.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sean

Okay preterists, this commentary may help you understand also......


Since the fathers fell asleep.—What fathers are meant? Four answers have been given to this question: (1) The ancestors of the human race; (2) the patriarchs and prophets; (3) the first generation of Christians; (4) each generation of men in relation to those following. Probably nothing more definite than our remote ancestors is intended. The expression “fell asleep” is used of St. Stephen’s death in Acts 7:60 (comp. Matthew 27:52; 1Corinthians 7:39, where the word is not literally translated; 1Corinthians 15:6; 1Corinthians 15:18, &c). The thoroughly Christian term “cemetery” (=sleeping-place), in the sense of a place of repose for the dead, comes from the same Greek root.

There is a passage quoted by Clement of Rome (circ. A.D. 100) which seems at first sight to contain a reference to this verse: “Far be from us this Scripture where He saith, Wretched are the double-minded, who doubt in heart and say, These things we heard in the times of our fathers also, but behold, we have grown old, and none of them has happened to us” (Epistle to the Corinthians, xxiii.). But the remainder of this “Scripture,” as quoted by Clement, is so utterly unlike the verse before us, that one suspects some other source. And this suspicion is confirmed when we find the same passage quoted in the so-called Second Epistle of Clement (xi.) as “the prophetic word.” (See on 2Peter 1:19 and on 2Peter 2:9). The differences between the two quotations are such that the pseudo-Clement appears to be quoting independently, and not merely borrowing from the true Clement. In neither case does close inspection encourage us to believe that our present verse is the source of the quotation. But the quotation by the true Clement is important as a complete refutation of the objection that “the fathers” means the first Christians, and consequently no such scoffing argument as this would be possible in the lifetime of St. Peter This very argument was not only in existence, but was condemned in a document which Clement before the close of the first century could quote as “Scripture.” Comp. Epistle of Poly carp, chap. vii.: “Whosoever perverts the oracles of the Lord to his own lusts, and says there is neither resurrection nor judgment, he is the firstborn of Satan.”

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...4OjPZQLPnQDKcQ

I will go with number 2

You need to stop going to the church of Google.

Sean, find the scripture where the apostles were called the fathers.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sean

for since the fathers fell asleep] Ordinarily, the “fathers,” as in Romans 9:5, would carry our thoughts back to the great progenitors of Israel as a people. Here, however, the stress laid by the mockers on the death of the fathers as the starting-point of the frustrated expectation, seems to give the word another application, and we may see in the “fathers” the first generation of the disciples of Christ, those who had “fallen asleep” without seeing the Advent they had looked for (1 Thessalonians 4:15); those who had reached the “end of their conversation” (Hebrews 13:7). The scoffers appealed to the continuity of the natural order of things. Seed-time and harvest, summer and winter, followed as they had done from the beginning of the creation. In the last phrase we may trace an echo of Mark 10:6; Mark 13:19. “You have told us,” they seem to have said, “of an affliction such as there has not been from the beginning of the creation, and lo! we find the world still goes on as of old, with no great catastrophe.” The answer to the sneer St Peter gives himself, but it may be noted that the question of the scoffers at least implies the early date of the writings in which the expectation of the Coming is prominent.



In the use of the verb to “fall asleep” for dying, we are reminded of our Lord’s words “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth” (John 11:11); of St Paul’s “many sleep” (1 Corinthians 11:30). So in Greek sculpture Death and Sleep appear as twin genii, and in Greek and Roman epitaphs nothing is more common than the record that the deceased “sleeps” below. Too often there is the addition, as of those who were without hope, “sleeps an eternal sleep.” In Christian language the idea of sleep is perpetuated in the term “cemetery” (κοιμητήριον = sleeping-place) as applied to the burial-place of the dead, but it is blended with that of an “awaking out of sleep” at the last day, and even with the thought, at first seemingly incompatible with it, that the soul is quickened into higher energies of life on its entrance into the unseen world.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...4OjPZQLPnQDKcQ

2 Peter 3:4-6. Where is the promise of his coming — To raise the dead, judge mankind, and destroy the earth? We see no sign of any such thing. The promise of Christ’s coming we have Matthew 15:27, The Son of man shall come in his glory, &c.; John 14:3, I will come and receive you to myself, &c., and in many other passages of the gospel; a promise which was renewed by the angels at our Lord’s ascension, and is spoken of in many passages of the epistles, especially in those of St. Paul. By representing Christ’s promised coming as a delusion, the scoffers set themselves and others free from all fear of a future judgment, and bereft the righteous of their hope of reward. For since the fathers fell asleep — Since our ancestors died; all things — Heaven, earth, air, water; continue as they were from the beginning of the creation — Without any such material change as might make us believe they will ever have an end. So say these scoffers.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/2_peter/3-4.htm

Sean, maybe you should read these websites before you post. You just cherry pick, because you haven't the slightest idea of what you believe. Jesus was one of the fathers that fell asleep? You tripped over your feet on that one. Yet, you let that post get buried and didn't even produce any commentary from your mentor Google concerning Jesus being one of the father's that fell asleep.

[Evang.Benincasa]

for since the fathers fell asleep; or "died": which is the language of the Scriptures, and here sneered at by these men, who believe them so fast asleep as never to be awaked or raised more; and by "the fathers" they mean the first inhabitants of the world, as Adam, Abel, Seth, &c. and all the patriarchs and prophets in all ages; the Ethiopic version renders it, "our first fathers":

all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation; reasoning from the settled order of things, the constant revolution of the sun, moon, and stars, the permanency of the earth, and the succession of the inhabitants of it, to the future continuance of things, without any alteration; and consequently, that Christ would not come, as was promised, to raise the dead, judge mankind destroy the world, and set up a new state of things: the fallacy of which reasoning is exposed by the apostle in the following words.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/2_peter/3-4.htm

Nice web page Sean.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Sean still failed to produce any scripture where the apostles were called the fathers. Sorry, but you have failed like you have in every single thread you have entered and posted your mythology.

I passed along 5 passages that the apostles referred to themselves or elders as spiritual fathers, but you reject them.....

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Sean

Verses that prove the Apostles/ elders were considered "spiritual" fathers...



Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;

Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord....

For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.....

To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.....

Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children....

I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.....

For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
.....

Here they are.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

2 Peter 3:4-6. Where is the promise of his coming — To raise the dead, judge mankind, and destroy the earth? We see no sign of any such thing. The promise of Christ’s coming we have Matthew 15:27, The Son of man shall come in his glory, &c.; John 14:3, I will come and receive you to myself, &c., and in many other passages of the gospel; a promise which was renewed by the angels at our Lord’s ascension, and is spoken of in many passages of the epistles, especially in those of St. Paul. By representing Christ’s promised coming as a delusion, the scoffers set themselves and others free from all fear of a future judgment, and bereft the righteous of their hope of reward. For since the fathers fell asleep — Since our ancestors died; all things — Heaven, earth, air, water; continue as they were from the beginning of the creation — Without any such material change as might make us believe they will ever have an end. So say these scoffers.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/2_peter/3-4.htm

Sean, maybe you should read these websites before you post. You just cherry pick, because you haven't the slightest idea of what you believe. Jesus was one of the fathers that fell asleep? You tripped over your feet on that one. Yet, you let that post get buried and didn't even produce any commentary from your mentor Google concerning Jesus being one of the father's that fell asleep.

Did you notice I inserted a site with multiple points of view, including your preterist point of view?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Sean

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep(Peter included himself), all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.




Peter says that in the Last Days, before the return of Jesus Christ, scoffers would come and say the founders of Christianity died(including Jesus), and nothing has changed from the beginning of time.

We clearly see that idea perpetuated in this generation, with the belief in the theory of evolution etc..

Did you know that the consensus of sinners(unbelievers)say that all of the Biblical founders(fathers) of Christianity died and are still dead, including Jesus?

Do you think these scoffers believe that Jesus rose from the dead?

You do???

I dare you to say that!