Tithing…Is it a command?

[Sean]

Amen, which, under the Law, they are working wrath.

[good samaritan]

[QUOTE=Tithesmeister;1516157]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

I believe that it is significant that people who want to teach that tithing is for today, will go back beyond the law of Moses concerning tithing, AFTER they concede that we are no longer under the law.

When they go back to the pre-law tithing, there are only two occasions that they can point to. Abram, when he tithed to Melchizedek, and Jacob, when he PROMISED to tithe to God, IF God met some conditions that JACOB proposed.

The short answer to these is that Abram tithed once, on the spoils of war.

Jacob never tithed at all, as far as the Bible is concerned, he only promised to.

So, concerning Abram, it would be truthful to say that if we follow his example, we should tithe on the spoils of war, at least once. If we have no spoils of war, honesty would prescribe that we teach that we would NOT tithe. If the conditions are not met, then the reaction to the conditions would not be met.

Concerning Jacob promising to tithe. How would you even be able to teach tithing at all from his example? There is no example of his ever tithing! Maybe you could teach something about negotiating with God from this passage, but I can't see teaching tithing from a passage that never verifies that he actually did so.

The next thing that those that blindly teach tithing will say is that tithing never stopped after Abram tithed. This is simply untrue. We have an example of war spoils giving in Numbers chapter 31.

In this example there is a crucial difference to Abrams tithing. God commanded Moses and Eleazar what to give and how much to give of the spoils. How big a deal is this? It is huge! In one example (Abram's) we are left to wonder why he gave. People are full of speculation, it seems. In the other example (Moses), there is NO need to speculate. We have it in black and white. The evidence is clear. There is no doubt. The offering was one in five hundred, (if you were of those who actually went to war), or one in fifty, (if you were of the general population who did not go to war). And . . .

Bible, King James Version

Numbers 31:31


[31] And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.


This was a clear cut commandment of God concerning the giving of an offering on the spoils of war.

Why do preachers of tithing not teach on this clear example?

Is it because it clearly proposes something that they don't want people to believe?

This example occurred before the major portion of the Mosaic Law went into effect, (before the Hebrews entered the promised land), but even if the law had been in effect, it would have made no difference. The tithing law did not affect spoils of war.

Why did Jacob promise to tithe is good a question? I don't find anyone teaching to tithe before Moses. Abraham and Jacob done it freewill, but it must have been taught to them somewhere. My point is that tithing seems to had been familiar to the patriarchs for them to had done it. Maybe they learned it from pagan practices, IDK. I have read where many religions have tithed. Tithing is an act of showing worship to God which is clearly both Abraham and Jacob did it.

TIthing has alwlays been a way to worship God and to honor him for his provision. The gentile church never has been bound by law to tithe or any other mosaic law (only a moral law written in our hearts). The law was only for the Jew. Outside of the law, tithing had other significance (worshiping and honoring God). If you are saying that tithing is wrong, that is to say that worshiping and honoring God with you substance is wrong. More and more in Christianity are seeing that tithing is not a legality to go to hell over, but is something that is done as an act of worship to God.

To tithe or not to tithe is between the individual and God. I will say that worship and honoring God with our increase is mandatory. I am saddened how that so many have been hurt over the modern tithing system that we have, but lets not throw the baby out with the bath water. Tithing is a good thing, but our giving should be done in secret. We are not to police one another on our giving, but instead should seek to bless one another.

[Tithesmeister]

[QUOTE=good samaritan;1516290]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Why did Jacob promise to tithe is good a question? I don't find anyone teaching to tithe before Moses. Abraham and Jacob done it freewill, but it must have been taught to them somewhere. My point is that tithing seems to had been familiar to the patriarchs for them to had done it. Maybe they learned it from pagan practices, IDK. I have read where many religions have tithed. Tithing is an act of showing worship to God which is clearly both Abraham and Jacob did it.

TIthing has alwlays been a way to worship God and to honor him for his provision. The gentile church never has been bound by law to tithe or any other mosaic law (only a moral law written in our hearts). The law was only for the Jew. Outside of the law, tithing had other significance (worshiping and honoring God). If you are saying that tithing is wrong, that is to say that worshiping and honoring God with you substance is wrong. More and more in Christianity are seeing that tithing is not a legality to go to hell over, but is something that is done as an act of worship to God.

To tithe or not to tithe is between the individual and God. I will say that worship and honoring God with our increase is mandatory. I am saddened how that so many have been hurt over the modern tithing system that we have, but lets not throw the baby out with the bath water. Tithing is a good thing, but our giving should be done in secret. We are not to police one another on our giving, but instead should seek to bless one another.

I agree with the overall tone of your post. We really don’t know why Jacob promised to tithe. It seems that he was trying to make a deal with God. If God would do about five things, then Jacob would tithe. What is obvious is that God didn’t command him to tithe. It is never confirmed that he did tithe. Anything more it seems would be speculation.

I am a proponent of teaching tithing. I believe in teaching the truth about tithing. Tithing is almost never taught truthfully. There are many assumptions about tithing that are not borne out by scripture.

I am unaware of any scripture that compares tithing with worship. I have heard it taught, but I am unaware of scripture to support it. If you could post some scripture that says this I would appreciate it.

[good samaritan]

[QUOTE=Tithesmeister;1516302]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

In essence we all make deals with God. It is basically a covenant. God if you do for me then I will worship you. It would be hard to serve a God that does nothing for us or created us just to make us suffer. That is not the God that we serve. I get the impression that Jacob was trying God. Jacob did not have a BIble, book, or formulated religion to explain God to him. He was learning as he went. When you take that into consideration it makes sense why he would bargain with God. His faith was still being formed. He wanted to know that he was choosing a God who was going to take care of him.

All the other pagans created their own gods for this same purpose. Gods for rain, fertility, war, etc.. Everyone wants security. That is what people look to God for (security). I am thankful that we don't have to stop at a shallow relationship, but we become a friend of God.

I don't mean to misrepresent, but in principle, giving is an act of worship. In the first couple of chapters of the NT you find the wise men worshiping Jesus bringing him gifts. There may not be a verse that says tithing is worship. I do see all through scripture that people gave to honor and recognize God. To me that is what worship is. Giving is a method we can worship God, tithing is simply an amount pledged to give.

[Tithesmeister]

[QUOTE=good samaritan;1516406]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I don't mean to misrepresent, but in principle, giving is an act of worship. In the first couple of chapters of the NT you find the wise men worshiping Jesus bringing him gifts. There may not be a verse that says tithing is worship. I do see all through scripture that people gave to honor and recognize God. To me that is what worship is. Giving is a method we can worship God, tithing is simply an amount pledged to give.

I think the definition of tithing is important. Is tithing really giving? I think that tithing is generally regarded (even by Jesus) as paying. I believe most pastors that teach tithing as mandatory would agree.

Bible, King James Version

Matt.23 Verses 23 to 24

[23] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
[24] Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

I don't believe that tithing was ever really considered free will offerings in the Bible, with the possible exception of the act of tithing done by Abraham, as you have pointed out. Jacob's promise to tithe, was in my opinion a negotiation. Giving alms, paying tributes, offerings for building the temple etc., all may have been free will. I believe that tithing fell outside the realm of free will giving. It was statutory, (according to law).

And I absolutely believe that you have no intention to misrepresent. You come across as being very sincere and honest.

[good samaritan]

[QUOTE=Tithesmeister;1516409][QUOTE=good samaritan;1516406]

I think the definition of tithing is important. Is tithing really giving? I think that tithing is generally regarded (even by Jesus) as paying. I believe most pastors that teach tithing as mandatory would agree.

Herein lies the heart of the matter. Tithing today should be viewed as giving and not paying. I don't see tithing as a mandatory law for the church. Instead, I see a method of giving that is a good practice. Although, we are not restricted to it.

Bible, King James Version

Matt.23 Verses 23 to 24

[23] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
[24] Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

I don't believe that tithing was ever really considered free will offerings in the Bible, with the possible exception of the act of tithing done by Abraham, as you have pointed out. Jacob's promise to tithe, was in my opinion a negotiation. Giving alms, paying tributes, offerings for building the temple etc., all may have been free will. I believe that tithing fell outside the realm of free will giving. It was statutory, (according to law).

The law made it statutory because it was prophetic. Tithing has more significance than what many of us know. "Not one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law until all be fulfilled." Moses did not enter the promised land because he failed to follow the instructions of God. The laws given Moses where symbolic, making them important to be kept.

I believe the tithe has spritual fulfillment, but I am still searching on the subject. Stories mentioned like the healing of the ten lepers and the one coming back to worship Jesus makes me think that the tithe has some deeper meaning.

And I absolutely believe that you have no intention to misrepresent. You come across as being very sincere and honest.

Thank you. Many people would do well to just hear one another out. I like hearing what others have to say, while at the same time sharpening my own views.

[Tithesmeister]

[QUOTE=good samaritan;1516420][QUOTE=Tithesmeister;1516409]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Herein lies the heart of the matter. Tithing today should be viewed as giving and not paying. I don't see tithing as a mandatory law for the church. Instead, I see a method of giving that is a good practice. Although, we are not restricted to it.



The law made it statutory because it was prophetic. Tithing has more significance than what many of us know. "Not one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law until all be fulfilled." Moses did not enter the promised land because he failed to follow the instructions of God. The laws given Moses where symbolic, making them important to be kept.

I believe the tithe has spritual fulfillment, but I am still searching on the subject. Stories mentioned like the healing of the ten lepers and the one coming back to worship Jesus makes me think that the tithe has some deeper meaning.



Thank you. Many people would do well to just hear one another out. I like hearing what others have to say, while at the same time sharpening my own views.

You said," I believe the tithe has spiritual fulfillment". This is a concept that I think may be very significant. It is always easier to debate about what we have solid scripture to support. The types and shadows of the Old Testament are real, albeit they may be a bit fuzzy. Allow me to give some examples and quote a scripture or two.

Bible, King James Version

Heb.10 Verses 1

[1]For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

We have here a shadow of the law, which the tithe was certainly part of. Below, we have a spiritual application of the sacrifice of praise and doing good deeds, and the fruit of our lips. This may be the spiritual application that the law was a shadow of, that you, (and I) have searched for.

Bible, King James Version

Heb.13 Verses 15 to 16

[15] By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
[16] But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

Now first fruits and tithes are often confused, due to poor teaching and poor understanding. They are NOT the same thing, but they DO have some similarities AND some differences. Below are SOME of those kind of mixed together.

1. A similarity:They both came from the crops of the LAND of Israel. The first fruits came entirely from the harvest of crops, the tithe came PARTIALLY from the [B]harvest] of crops.

2. A difference: The first fruits were gathered at the beginning of the harvest. while the tithe was withheld at the end of the [B]harvest[/B.]

3.Difference: The Harvest of first fruits was to be delivered directly to the priests. The tithe of the harvest was to be delivered to the Levites, who would in turn deliver a tithe of the tithe of the harvest to the priests (descendants of Aaron).

4. Difference: The first fruits were a portion of the harvest that was not a fixed percentage, but was a portion that could be contained in a basket and carried to the priest. The tithes were, in part, a fixed fraction of the harvest (one tenth) and were given to the Levites (as far as the Levitical tithe was concerned).

These are some differences/similarities of the tithe and first fruits. I'm sure you noticed that I repeatedly used bold type to illustrate the word harvest. The reason for that is that I would like to emphasize that the harvest is a spiritual harvest in the New Testament, whereas it was a physical harvest in the Old Testament. Maybe not always, but very often, enough to verify a "spiritual" shift in the terminology.

Scriptures in the New Testament that are about harvest:


Bible, King James Version

Matt.9
[37] Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
[38] Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
Matt.13
[30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
[39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mark.4
[29] But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.
Luke.10
[2] Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
John.4
[35] Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
Rev.14
[15] And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

New Testament scripture for first fruits:

Bible, King James Version


Rom.8
[23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom.16
[5] Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
1Cor.15
[20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Cor.16
[15] I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)
Jas.1
[18] Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Rev.14
[4] These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

If you will notice that all of these scriptures concerning the first fruits and the scriptures concerning the harvest, are referring to a harvest/first fruits of souls to be won to Christ. NONE of these scriptures are about tithes.

My theory is that if the first fruits were of the harvest and the tithe was of the harvest at least partially, in the Old Testament. And in the New Testament, the harvest and the first fruits is of souls (pretty much every time). Isn't there a pretty good argument to be made that if sacrifices and fruits are spiritual, and if first fruits of the harvest are spiritual (souls), couldn't the tithe as well as first fruits be measured in a spiritual harvest of souls?

Would that be a great leap?

[good samaritan]

[QUOTE=Tithesmeister;1516429][QUOTE=good samaritan;1516420]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

You said," I believe the tithe has spiritual fulfillment". This is a concept that I think may be very significant. It is always easier to debate about what we have solid scripture to support. The types and shadows of the Old Testament are real, albeit they may be a bit fuzzy. Allow me to give some examples and quote a scripture or two.

Bible, King James Version

Heb.10 Verses 1

[1]For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

We have here a shadow of the law, which the tithe was certainly part of. Below, we have a spiritual application of the sacrifice of praise and doing good deeds, and the fruit of our lips. This may be the spiritual application that the law was a shadow of, that you, (and I) have searched for.

Bible, King James Version

Heb.13 Verses 15 to 16

[15] By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
[16] But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

Now first fruits and tithes are often confused, due to poor teaching and poor understanding. They are NOT the same thing, but they DO have some similarities AND some differences. Below are SOME of those kind of mixed together.

1. A similarity:They both came from the crops of the LAND of Israel. The first fruits came entirely from the harvest of crops, the tithe came PARTIALLY from the [B]harvest] of crops.

2. A difference: The first fruits were gathered at the beginning of the harvest. while the tithe was withheld at the end of the [B]harvest[/B.]

3.Difference: The Harvest of first fruits was to be delivered directly to the priests. The tithe of the harvest was to be delivered to the Levites, who would in turn deliver a tithe of the tithe of the harvest to the priests (descendants of Aaron).

4. Difference: The first fruits were a portion of the harvest that was not a fixed percentage, but was a portion that could be contained in a basket and carried to the priest. The tithes were, in part, a fixed fraction of the harvest (one tenth) and were given to the Levites (as far as the Levitical tithe was concerned).

These are some differences/similarities of the tithe and first fruits. I'm sure you noticed that I repeatedly used bold type to illustrate the word harvest. The reason for that is that I would like to emphasize that the harvest is a spiritual harvest in the New Testament, whereas it was a physical harvest in the Old Testament. Maybe not always, but very often, enough to verify a "spiritual" shift in the terminology.

Scriptures in the New Testament that are about harvest:


Bible, King James Version

Matt.9
[37] Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
[38] Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
Matt.13
[30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
[39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mark.4
[29] But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.
Luke.10
[2] Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
John.4
[35] Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
Rev.14
[15] And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

New Testament scripture for first fruits:

Bible, King James Version


Rom.8
[23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom.16
[5] Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
1Cor.15
[20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Cor.16
[15] I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)
Jas.1
[18] Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Rev.14
[4] These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

If you will notice that all of these scriptures concerning the first fruits and the scriptures concerning the harvest, are referring to a harvest/first fruits of souls to be won to Christ. NONE of these scriptures are about tithes.

My theory is that if the first fruits were of the harvest and the tithe was of the harvest at least partially, in the Old Testament. And in the New Testament, the harvest and the first fruits is of souls (pretty much every time). Isn't there a pretty good argument to be made that if sacrifices and fruits are spiritual, and if first fruits of the harvest are spiritual (souls), couldn't the tithe as well as first fruits be measured in a spiritual harvest of souls?

Would that be a great leap?

This would be my assumption as well. the tithe is God's part before it is given. therefore if it is not given, malachi calls them robbers (we belong to God). I believe also the OT tithes, just like the firstfruits, is prophetically pointing us to the harvest of souls. Jesus is the firstfruits of the resurrection the tithe is likely to be the collection of the rest of what is Gods' aka the church.

1 Cor. 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Many church leaders see the fulfillment for the sabbath as the infilling of the Holy Ghost (entering his rest). Often people dont use that same logic interpreting tithing in the law. We pick and choose some laws to be applied literal and some symbolic.

[Esaias]

Following the harvest/tithe analogy...

The tithe was paid at the end of the harvest. The end of the harvest would be the end of the world. The harvest is people, so the tithe would be people. 10% of the people saved would make the tithe.(The unsaved are tares, chaff, etc, not counted as part of the harvest.)

I can't crunch the numbers to show a tithe relation between the 144,000 in Revelation and the 603,550 in Israel's first census, except that is close to a "double tithe" (whatever that means).

I think the answer would be found in the significance of "tenth" itself rather than in a significance of tithing agriculture products?

[Esaias]

Check out Isaiah 6:13, a tenth is the remnant....