Does Everyone Live Forever?

[coksiw]

[Rev 14:11 KJV] 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Could you guys please explain this one?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by coksiw

[Rev 14:11 KJV] 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Could you guys please explain this one?

How long is forever? That is where the answer lies. It CAN mean in the sense of without end but does not have to.

According to Jesus in one context FOREVER was speaking of 3 days.

Remember when Jesus mentioned Jonah being in the fish belly for 3 days?

Matt 12:40

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Lets see how that squares with the prophet Jonah.

Jonah 1:17

17Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

So in straight face Jonah was there 3 days and nights.

Yet look at what he wrote about his experience.

Jonah 2:6

6I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Jonah said he was there FOREVER.

In chapter 2 he says it was "forever".

No doubt it seemed like forever as he languished in the belly of a whale!

And the Holy Spirit could be using the same kind of language (hyperbole) in portraying the punishment of the wicked in the lake of fire until their eternal destruction.

If 3 days could be forever in the Holy Spirit doesnt that remind us of this?

2 Peter 3:8

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Isnt that amazing? Time is measured differently with God.

This allows God to pass a just sentence on every human being. He knows how to give us according to our works. Some may spend much more time in the lake than others. But whoever is there to them it will certainly seem like forever.

Let me do a follow up on this one.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by coksiw

[Rev 14:11 KJV] 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Could you guys please explain this one?

How long is forever? That is where the answer lies. It CAN mean in the sense of without end but does not have to.

In one context referenced by Jesus FOREVER was speaking of 3 days!

Remember when Jesus mentioned Jonah being in the fish belly for 3 days?

Matt 12:40

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Lets see how that squares with the prophet Jonah.

Jonah 1:17

17Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

So in straight fact Jonah was there 3 days and nights.

Yet look at what he wrote about his experience.

Jonah 2:6

6I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Jonah said he was there FOREVER.

In chapter 2 he says it was "forever".

No doubt it seemed like forever as he languished in the belly of a whale!

And the Holy Spirit could be using the same kind of language (hyperbole) in portraying the punishment of the wicked in the lake of fire until their eternal destruction.

If 3 days could be forever in the Holy Spirit doesnt that remind us of this?

2 Peter 3:8

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Isnt that amazing? Time is measured differently with God.

This allows God to pass a just sentence on every human being. He knows how to give us according to our works. Some may spend much more time in the lake than others. But whoever is there to them it will certainly seem like forever.

Let me do a follow up on this one.

[Michael The Disciple]

In Greek "forever" is Strongs word 165 an "age". Men use points of time when referring to what constitutes an age. If God's timing is different than ours then a just God knows how to give each one the judgment they deserve.

Forever does not always mean an unending period or "age". Ages or FOREVERS have already come and gone!

Col. 1:26

26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

The Greek here again is 165. The same word elsewhere rendered FOREVER.

So we have apostle Paul saying to the saints that the mystery of Christ was hidden from FOREVERS till the time it was revealed.

Can we grasp that? In Biblical time frame at least several FOREVERS occured from the time of Adam to the time of Christ.

Paul also tells the Ephesians there are more FOREVERS coming.

Ephesians 2:7

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

The "ages" to come are "forevers" to come. So obviously the sense we normally think of forever meaning "never ending" is not the same as the Biblical concept.

So yes the beast worshippers will have no rest day or night. The smoke of their torment will ascend up for ever and ever. How long is that? We dont know. What we do know is it will end eventually.

Why?

The soul that sins shall die. Ezekiel 18:4

The wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23

I will have one more post on this.

[Michael The Disciple]

Rev 20:

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Here we are told Satan will be tormented forever and ever or for ages and ages.

Drawing on what I previously posted we have no way to know how long an age or forever is to God when he renders his judgment. We know they could be very short, very long, or something else.

I believe using the devil we can show that this particular word Strongs 165 does not teach that anyone will be tormented WITHOUT END.

What do we know about the devil? Besides the fact Jesus saw him fall like lightning from Heaven this gives us the best knowledge we have on his origin.

A Lament over the King of Tyre

Ezekiel 28:11-15

11Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Does this sound like an earthly king? I never knew of one described like this. Yes this I believe was the devil before he fell from Heaven.

Now John said he would be tormented forever and ever. That must be true. And yet look at what the rest of the context says.

Verse 16-19

16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Yes the devil will suffer for ever and ever. Yet after forever and ever note what happens.

God destroys him with fire and he BECOMES NOTHING!

So in the end all scripture will be fulfilled!

There will first be suffering for the wicked. It will not last eternally. But their ultimate end which is DEATH.......IS ETERNAL.

Once they suffer the 2nd death it WILL BE FOR ETERNITY.

So yes their is eternal punishment. The death of the soul.

[TGBTG]

What is the significance of this teaching?

In other words, if a person believes asserts unbelievers will be in the lake of fire for eternity as opposed to being there for "a certain amount of time", what difference does it make?

In both instances, the unbeliever is separated from God's presence for all eternity. I'm struggling to see the significance of this teaching...

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by coksiw

[Rev 14:11 KJV] 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Could you guys please explain this one?

It is the smoke that ascends up into the ages of ages, not the torment. The smoke is the symbol of the agony unbelievers endured as they were destroyed at the 2nd death. All that remains of these twice dead sinners is the whirl of ash to which they were reduced.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

What is the significance of this teaching?

In other words, if a person believes asserts unbelievers will be in the lake of fire for eternity as opposed to being there for "a certain amount of time", what difference does it make?

In both instances, the unbeliever is separated from God's presence for all eternity. I'm struggling to see the significance of this teaching...

Me, too.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

What is the significance of this teaching?

In other words, if a person believes asserts unbelievers will be in the lake of fire for eternity as opposed to being there for "a certain amount of time", what difference does it make?

In both instances, the unbeliever is separated from God's presence for all eternity. I'm struggling to see the significance of this teaching...

All doctrine speaks to either truth or error. As such, true doctrine honors and promotes God; false doctrine dishonors and demotes God.

So, regardless of the practical implications for the sinner who is destroyed in Gehenna, the main question is whether or not God is correctly understood, and whether He is exalted or impugned.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

What is the significance of this teaching?

In other words, if a person believes asserts unbelievers will be in the lake of fire for eternity as opposed to being there for "a certain amount of time", what difference does it make?

In both instances, the unbeliever is separated from God's presence for all eternity. I'm struggling to see the significance of this teaching...

The significance is that error is being taught among Apostolic people. Why should they be taught to believe in something that is false? Why should it be amened when it is taught that souls never die? Why should it be amened when it is preached that someone who may live 20 years on the Earth and die will be either laying, standing, or swimming in a lake of fire for billions of years?

But no that would be wrong. It would be TRILLIONS of years of torment. But no that would be wrong also because the trillions would turn into thousands of trillions and so on and so forth.

Does that truly sound like justice?

Of course since I taught this doctrine for 16 years I realize it has a strong hold in saints lives.

I believe this. If a man truly believed he would be cast into Gehenna fire FOR EVEN ONE DAY......because he failed to be an overcomer he would never commit another sin!