Autism or possession

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Brother, if I break my leg, that is a physical injury that can be healed through medical intervention. Neurological disorders are not the same. They cannot simply be healed.

So you don't believe God is all powerful. Got it.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

That is the apples to oranges. As for the rest, God can do as He pleases, and yes, having Down's Syndrome is just another way of being human. People with Down's Syndrome are created by God in the womb with an extra chromosome. So, where do you suppose that extra chromosome came from?

We live in a fallen world. Disease and death was never God's plan for humanity, but it became our reality when Adam and Eve sinned.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

If you begin with an a priori assumption that an autistic is a damaged in need of healing, not otherwise just another way of being human, person created in the image and likeness of God, all you will ever do is pray and pray and pray for God to do something to make him or her normal, and while you fixate on that, you miss the life being lived right in front of you. It's just another way of othering someone for being different.

Some of them live perfectly normal lives (I question whether that even falls under the category of "autism", but that's a whole other topic). What about those who are incapable of being reached? Do we just shrug our shoulders, repeat that's how God made them and let them be, despite knowing there's only one way to be saved; through repentance, baptism and Holy Ghost infilling?

Originally Posted by votivesoul

We're not talking life choices here, right? We are talking about people who had no choice in their autism. So, yes, begin from the place I recommended, so as to, as I told Good Samaritan, First, Do No Harm. Coming at it from any other angle is going to cause harm. So, unless and until God Himself speaks forthrightly and proves to you that the autistic is in need of healing and deliverance, don't go about assuming it is so.

People born with physical disorders didn't have a choice, either. Either you believe God can heal all, or you don't believe God is all powerful.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Nonsense never serves a point except to continue to perpetuate its own foolishness. And just because you've quoted a dictionary, doesn't mean people with disabilities will go along with those definitions. And don't you suppose they have a say in the matter in regards to how they themselves are defined?

That's sounds like the whole 'transgender' argument in a nutshell: "I decided this was a mean thing to call me, so you have to call me by this instead". There's a time and place for tact, but don't ever tell me I should deny reality just because someone might be offended by it. You're welcome to be offended by a dictionary definition, but don't try telling me it means something other than what it does. You're not going to make me feel bad about using a perfectly legitimate term, even if it makes you uncomfortable.

That speaks more to your bias, than it does mine.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Everyone is, as you say, handicapped to some extent or other. We all have advantages and disadvantages, one person to the next. But the person in a wheelchair is someone more deserving of being compared to a beggar in need of alms because of their wheelchair?

So now you've moved on from neurological disorders to physical disorders. Do you believe that a person in a wheelchair can be healed?

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The best thing you could personally do is go and spend some time with people who were born with a disability and ask them yourself how they feel about the term "handicap".

What about those who came into a disability later in life? Why should I limit myself just to people born with one?

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I don't really know you at all, as we've barely interacted here, so I don't think one thing or the other about you, poorly or otherwise. In fact, I formulate very few opinions about anyone with whom I interact online since, some words on a screen do not, and cannot adequately sum up the totality of the person behind the text.

Your statements say otherwise. It assumes a level of malice - or at the very least incompetence - that I find insulting.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Be that as it may, I do not think you are being abusive to anyone because you don't agree with my opinion. I think you are being abusive because I've spent years with people with disabilities and I know how they perceive people like yourself who insist on calling them handicapped.

So you are accusing me of being abusive. I'm glad we cleared that up.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Instead of arguing with me about it, however, why not take a personal inventory and confront your own prejudices toward people who, because of a disability, are different from you.

What personal prejudices? Again, you ascribe intent to my words where none exist.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

You are only proving your ignorance here. If you want to know how someone of any race or ethnicity would like to be addressed, ask him or her, and let each individual case call for its own terminology. Notwithstanding, you'd be hard-pressed to find a black person comfortable with being called a negro or being called colored.

Anymore, you'll find many who are offended merely by the term 'black'. That was my entire point, which you completely missed. The new fad in society is to keep deeming more and more words to be "harmful" and "hateful", and you've fallen right into the trap. I simply refuse to live my life constantly trying to avoid topical landmines.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Ridiculous. No word is ever inherently hateful.

I'm glad you conceded that.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Words become hateful when used under certain motivations

Which you've now falsely ascribed to me.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

and when they cause harm.

Which you've yet to prove empirically. Offense cannot be given, it can only be taken. It's on the individual whether they find something offensive or not. I can't control that, neither can you. There are things which are considered perfectly reasonable to be offended by, and then there are things which are completely unreasonable to be offended by.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

People with disabilities are harmed when described as handicapped. It causes them to question the motivations of people who continue to do so after they have been asked not to. That is the proper context.

If someone asks me not to use it, fine. I won't use it around them. You never even asked me if I would cease should someone ask me, you just assumed I wouldn't. I also won't stop using a term, just because one person gets offended by it. The word is what it is.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The only prayers God answers are those which are asked according to His will. You should get the mind of Christ and know His will before launching into such prayers, or risk a negative outcome.

You refuse to even determine if healing of a "neurological disorder" is in the will of God, because you've already deemed it incurable by God. Your words, not mine.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Neurological disorders are not the same. They cannot simply be healed.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I will answer this question, but first, answer mine:

Do you have any real skin in the game, or are you just taking potshots from the stands?

Having an opinion is "taking potshots from the stands"? Pardon me for having an opinion on the subject. I thought we were having a discussion, I didn't realize I had to be personally invested to have my own thoughts on the matter.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I thought it best to let this thread rest for a bit before responding, since, at least as it seems to me, things were getting perhaps a little too personal, and emotions and tensions were high. But I do not think that the conversation should be over, at least not yet, so I am writing all of this to say, that I intend to pick up where things left off, and at least, say my piece, even if no one else responds.

Good Samaritan,

Instead of bullet pointing, quid pro quo style, as we have been doing, I want to break from that formula, and just point out something that I sincerely hope you will take to heart.

You mentioned how you felt like you were being made to feel stupid. I asked you about it, and you responded as follows:




You then shared something personal from your own life, here:



More than anything, the thing I am trying to get across, and please tell me if the message was received (because it seems like it has not been), is that we have to be super careful about the kinds of things we communicate about others, especially people with autism.

Look what has transpired in this thread. One member called you a "nincompoop" and you conflated his response to you with mine, and assumed my initial question was a condemnation against you (which is wasn't). You confused my responses with Evangelist Benincasa's, towards Nicodemus' posts about the missionary and various OTC meds.

I am thinking that, because of what you share above, you have, perhaps unconsciously, internalized a harmful view of yourself that then gets triggered when you feel like people are treating you as if you are stupid.

I think you have formulated and incorrect opinion of me. I shared some personal things in order to make a point. I wasn't seeking sympathy nor was I being triggered by past hurts. I guess Jito just has a complex too. Your opinions have been posted as if you are the authority on the subject and anyone who disagrees is not only wrong, but abusive to children. You may try a different approach. Personally I don't mind the heat, I actually get alot out of the conversation. I can pick the bones out of my fish. I know you speak with some truth, but contrary to your posts, you don't have the authority on the subject.

Your mom and one of her exes thought you were mentally retarded. Do you suppose they treated you that way? Do you suppose you ever picked up on that treatment, even subconsciously, especially if it wasn't overt? Maybe you heard comments that you can't quite remember now, but that you know were about you, growing up?

The x that I spoke to you about, after 30years, he shows up visiting our church. He has some physical disabilities and last summer I mowed his yard for free most of the summer. I bear no ill will toward him and I cannot say of anything he said to me when I was a kid to make me feel stupid. Although, I feel like I could write a 1,000 page book on offenses and hardships. That has made me into the person I am today.

I admit, I am only speculating, and being somewhat rhetorical. You don't have to answer anything.

But for the sake of argument, let's just say that some of what I just wrote above is true. Do you see how damaging even the slightest hint from parents and family members and other adults in one's life can seriously psychologically injure a child?

So, put yourself in the shoes of an autistic. Try to understand how it would feel if you knew that people around you think you're broken, damaged, afflicted, possessed.

It might feel very much like how you felt when your mom's ex told you they thought you were retarded. It might feel how you felt when seguirdojesus called you a nincompoop. It might feel how you felt when I challenged your assumptions. Because you became seriously triggered, defensive, and I would dare say, irrational.

Do you even realize your choice of words are insulting? Next time your advising someone, be sure to suggest that they are being irrational and triggered and see how that works for the conversation. If our conversation seems to have been heated it is because you have kept it going.

As far as autistic kids go I have been much more careful with my words then you have been on this forum. You really don't have to explain to me that we need to be careful what we say in front of kids. If I could give an example: kid comes up and says, "watch me throw the football". I say, "wow you can throw really good, you have a strong arm". Most of the autistism that I am dealing with is like a kids stuck at about 9 or 10yrs old. I try to treat them appropiately for their level of comprehension. I don't talk about their disabilities in front of them. If or when I pray for them, I try to obey what I feel to be the Holy Ghost. I have never experienced it to not be well recieved by the child. I don't know if you are aware, but lots of young chidren want prayer. Praying for them is not going to hurt them.

For the autistic, such things not only just hurt emotionally, they can bring about an endless torment of feelings that they may never be free of. Autistics can and often are, hyper-focused and hyper-fixated. Suicide rates among autistics are 3X higher than that of their non-autistic peers:

https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...utistic-people

2021 World's Strongest Man Tom Stoltman, a man with autism, was once told by a teacher in high school that there are no certainties in life and that thought alone drove him to suicidal ideation. You can go to youtube and look him up and hear it for yourself.

I don't know about accuracy of all these online statistcs, but this all the more reason to pray for them.

So, yes, I realize what I wrote is a lot to put on you, or anyone. But please understand why I wrote what I wrote to you. You are so busy looking at this through your own eyes, that you fail to see how all this could look through the eyes of the autistic.

the title of this thread is not the title of a sunday school lesson or a sermon I would preach. It was just a quick title to attract people to comment on the thread. So we can have dialogue. We all learn that way. Somewhere early in this thread I think you have perceived me to be cruel to autistic kids and you needed to set me free from my archaic way of thinking. It may not give you any peace at night, but I promise you that I am not going to be discussing demonic possession over these kids, nor will I try to scream and yell a devil out of them. I don't see Bible for having to do all of that anyway.

I am glad that you want to help and reach out to and be a healer for those autistics in your life. But the healer must at all times follow this creed:

First, do no harm.

And, at least by this thread, it very much seems that the approach you are taking is an approach that could very well end up violating that creed.

If prayer hurts people, then I guess I am a cruel person.

Please go back and reread what you wrote. You wrote that if KIDS become bitter and resentful and backslide, they have no one to blame for themselves. You weren't talking adults who made free choices to choose unforgiveness and anger. Kids don't have the luxury. If mom or dad or someone else is abusing them and ruining their life, and that ruination turns toward unbelief and anger and pain and hatred and self-loathing and you name it, did that child really have a choice?

So, yes, once a person is an adult, they are accountable for all their decisions, but you didn't say adult. You said kids. That one's on you, brother

.

Kids become grown ups. No matter what happened in your childhood it is not an excuse for you to repeat those mistakes. Jesus died on the cross for the curse of sin. I don't have to let those sins against me be a hangup in my future. It doesn't matter who you are, if you don't forgive and move forward, you won't receive forgiveness. that is the Bible. No matter how much you tippy toe around things, people are going to get hurt. If Autism makes people more susceptable to hurt and heartache, then that is all the more reason to pray for them.

You didn't misunderstand. Autistics do not need to be healed or delivered from their autism. They need to be healed and delivered from trauma, psychological and physical. There is a difference. So, if an autistic repents and receives the Holy Spirit and remission of sins, they do not stop being neuro-divergent. You may see marked improvements in behavior and ability and etc., but that is a result of the spiritual healing that comes with the atonement, from the many ways that autistic children suffer (even when it's unintentional) at the hands of various people, from their parents and family, from their schools, their medical professionals, and their clergy.

I disagree. You choose to believe that autism is not an infirmity, but that it is just a different way of how people think. The whole course of this dialogue you have demonstrated some of the reasons why they need healing.

It is sad, and I hope you understand better where I am coming from. If you do not take away anything else from this post or my coents in the entirety of this thread, please consider the possibility that I am not just speaking from some theoretical position of study, but from many lived experiences.

Take care, brother, and I hope everything works out for you.

If I have offended you because of someone that is close to you I am truly sorry. Sometimes we have the freedom to say what we think on an online forum like this because we have no personal connections to one another. In a way it is good because we are more likely to get peoples true opinions in this fashion. I don't want to forget that we are real people and that we must be careful to not causes offences. Thank you for the conversation.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Jito463

So you don't believe God is all powerful. Got it.

You're not really interested in reading what I actually wrote, are you?

I wrote of "medical intervention" as the form of healing for a broken leg versus a neurological disorder not being able to be healed in the same manner, that is, by mere medical intervention. I also wrote that a physical injury is not the same as a neurological disorder. No more, no less.

We live in a fallen world. Disease and death was never God's plan for humanity, but it became our reality when Adam and Eve sinned.

That is a common theory, but I don't think it holds up to Biblical scrutiny. There is nothing in the Genesis account that proves humanity was to physically live forever in their current biological form. The death God warned them of that would come from eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil didn't cause Adam or Eve to die physically. Something else died in them that day. By the seventh day, God rested from ALL His works. No Fall had occurred by then. And yet, viruses and bacteria are living organisms, having had to have been created within the six days prior. Do the math. The very thing we are discussing, that causes sickness and disease were built into the very fabric of creation around us, BEFORE THE FALL.

Some of them live perfectly normal lives (I question whether that even falls under the category of "autism", but that's a whole other topic). What about those who are incapable of being reached? Do we just shrug our shoulders, repeat that's how God made them and let them be, despite knowing there's only one way to be saved; through repentance, baptism and Holy Ghost infilling?

If they are incapable of being reached, are they any different than the infant or toddler, who, if he or she should die, are not lost to hell on account of not obeying the Gospel?

People born with physical disorders didn't have a choice, either. Either you believe God can heal all, or you don't believe God is all powerful.

What God can do and what God will do are not inherently the same. God could make you wealthy beyond your wildest dreams, even more than Solomon in all his glory. Yes, He could. But will He? I don't think so. You have to differentiate between these two facets of God's character. Just because He is All-Powerful, doesn't mean He is All-Willing.

That's sounds like the whole 'transgender' argument in a nutshell: "I decided this was a mean thing to call me, so you have to call me by this instead". There's a time and place for tact, but don't ever tell me I should deny reality just because someone might be offended by it. You're welcome to be offended by a dictionary definition, but don't try telling me it means something other than what it does. You're not going to make me feel bad about using a perfectly legitimate term, even if it makes you uncomfortable.

That speaks more to your bias, than it does mine.

See, now I know you aren't interested in carefully reading what I wrote. I wrote very specifically, on purpose (because I knew you'd eventually go this route), that I wasn't writing of lifestyle choices.

I wrote (and you quoted me, by the way):

We're not talking life choices here, right? We are talking about people who had no choice in their autism.

Apart from that, how you personally choose to speak is your own business. I don't seek to control that one way or the other. If you recall, I originally wrote of the great utility in not being offensive in speech, that we could and should try to be like Paul, who exercised himself to be devoid of offense, and that if we care about bringing souls to the Gospel and seeing them saved, it behooves us to consider our language and how we go about speaking.

But you do you, man. No skin off my nose. I just wouldn't expect to have much success winning autistics or other people with disabilities if I were you.

So now you've moved on from neurological disorders to physical disorders. Do you believe that a person in a wheelchair can be healed?

Some people in wheelchairs are so because of neurological disorders. Did you not know that? As far as what I believe, please note you are still caught up on "can", and are not giving due diligence to "will". Can they be healed? As I already wrote, God can do as He pleases. Will they be healed? Only if God wills it. And if He doesn't will it, no amount of praying to the contrary is going to get that fellow miraculously out of his chair.

What about those who came into a disability later in life? Why should I limit myself just to people born with one?

How you limit or don't limit yourself is your own business. But you might consider whether or not people who end up with a disability later in life don't want to be known as "disabled" so much so as, someone with a disability. You might claim that's splitting hairs and fair enough, but sometimes the splitting of hairs makes all the difference on whether or not you and your testimony about Christ will be received or rejected. And if rejected, you might want to consider whether or not the reason it was rejected was because of you.

Your statements say otherwise. It assumes a level of malice - or at the very least incompetence - that I find insulting.

So you are accusing me of being abusive. I'm glad we cleared that up.

If you're insulted, please accept my apologies. It seems to me you are reading into my words a "level of malice" that isn't there. I don't have it in for you or desire your harm. As far as incompetence goes, might it not be the case that in this arena, you might not know as much as you think you do, and that someone else, in this case, me, might have something to say that could help you out, that if you would listen and consider and seek to understand, you might actually be benefitted from having listened, considered, and seeking to understand?

Regarding abusive. All I ask, if it is within your power to do so, is reach out to people with disabilities, people with MS, or MD, or Cerebral Palsy, or etc., and ask them if being called handicapped is abusive, to them.

If you care to have a read, go to:

http://www.unitedspinal.org/pdf/DisabilityEtiquette.pdf

Scroll to page 7 to Terminology Tips. The things I am writing in this thread were not invented by me, and they didn't develop in a vacuum.

What personal prejudices? Again, you ascribe intent to my words where none exist.

The ones that cause you to insist that you can use whatever term you like to describe whomever you will, in this case, people with disabilities as "handicapped". The fact you won't open your mind to the possibility that you are wrong in this matter and need to update yourself, is a prejudice.

Anymore, you'll find many who are offended merely by the term 'black'. That was my entire point, which you completely missed. The new fad in society is to keep deeming more and more words to be "harmful" and "hateful", and you've fallen right into the trap. I simply refuse to live my life constantly trying to avoid topical landmines.

And that is your freedom, and your prejudice to decide. You do you, man.

I'm glad you conceded that.

It wasn't even in contention.

Which you've now falsely ascribed to me.

Just what have I ascribed to you, falsely or otherwise? Is not the statement "words become hateful when used under certain motivations" factually, or as you say, empirically, correct? Where is the ascription to you in that? If you agree with the statement, then agree with it, and not take it so personally.

Which you've yet to prove empirically. Offense cannot be given, it can only be taken. It's on the individual whether they find something offensive or not. I can't control that, neither can you. There are things which are considered perfectly reasonable to be offended by, and then there are things which are completely unreasonable to be offended by.

Weaseling if I ever saw it. I have to prove to you that someone is harmed by language used toward them? I have to give empirical data on the subject to make you happy? You don't know this for yourself? You've never heard the phrase "verbal abuse"?

And the idea that the offended are fully and only to blame for their offense, is really nothing more than blaming the victim for the crimes perpetuated against him or her. That's the camp you want to be in?

If someone asks me not to use it, fine. I won't use it around them. You never even asked me if I would cease should someone ask me, you just assumed I wouldn't. I also won't stop using a term, just because one person gets offended by it. The word is what it is.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You show here your intentions to use whatever language you like toward someone with a disability, then expect them to come forward and ask you not to use that language, as if the onus was solely on them, and then, when their back is turned and they are out of earshot, you'll go on using the language they asked you not to use. This is why I suggested you take a personal inventory of your own prejudices.

But hey, if you can't see it you can't see it. You do you, man.

You refuse to even determine if healing of a "neurological disorder" is in the will of God, because you've already deemed it incurable by God. Your words, not mine.

If you are going to say that such and such words are mine, then it follows that the words you claim are mine, actually have to be words I've actually I said. I have only stated that autism is not a condition that needs to be healed, but rather is just another way of being human. I said the same about people with Down's. I did not say that is the case for every and all neurological disorders. Again, evidence here you're not actually carefully reading what I've written, you're just skimming and reacting.

Having an opinion is "taking potshots from the stands"? Pardon me for having an opinion on the subject. I thought we were having a discussion, I didn't realize I had to be personally invested to have my own thoughts on the matter.

Yes, having opinions is taking potshots from the stands. Since you are not personally invested in the actual realities of what it's like being an autistic, how you're treated, perceived, and etc., your opinion is you merely waxing philosophical. The discussion for your is academic. So, you can cast your two cents in, but in the end, it doesn't really cost you anything, while other people go about paying the price of your prejudice and ignorance.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I think you have formulated and incorrect opinion of me. I shared some personal things in order to make a point. I wasn't seeking sympathy nor was I being triggered by past hurts. I guess Jito just has a complex too. Your opinions have been posted as if you are the authority on the subject and anyone who disagrees is not only wrong, but abusive to children. You may try a different approach. Personally I don't mind the heat, I actually get alot out of the conversation. I can pick the bones out of my fish. I know you speak with some truth, but contrary to your posts, you don't have the authority on the subject.

Honestly, brother, I haven't formulated an opinion at all. I read your words, and I deliberate them in real time. The jury is always out. Overall, so far I think you're a pretty reasonable, decent fellow, from what I can tell.

As for the rest, I don't think you posted any of your personal anecdotes in order to garner sympathy, but whether or not you were being triggered by past hurts? I ask you to reread your own posts. If you honestly cannot see someone reacting from a place of hurt, then I will discard my own speculations and let it go at that.

The x that I spoke to you about, after 30years, he shows up visiting our church. He has some physical disabilities and last summer I mowed his yard for free most of the summer. I bear no ill will toward him and I cannot say of anything he said to me when I was a kid to make me feel stupid. Although, I feel like I could write a 1,000 page book on offenses and hardships. That has made me into the person I am today.

No doubt you could. We probably all could.

Do you even realize your choice of words are insulting? Next time your advising someone, be sure to suggest that they are being irrational and triggered and see how that works for the conversation. If our conversation seems to have been heated it is because you have kept it going.

I don't think this conversation has been heated. And if you're insulted, please accept my apologies. How words such as I have used affect a conversation entirely depends on whether or not such words are true and accurate to the situation and those involved. If a word or phrase is an insult, perhaps that may be the case, but whether or not that word or phrase is true, that's another thing entirely. You said you weren't triggered, defensive, or irrational? Fine, you're the best judge of your own situation. But the tone and demeanor and word choices in your posts in this thread to me speak otherwise. Go back and reread and see if you can see what I see. You might be surprised.

As far as autistic kids go I have been much more careful with my words then you have been on this forum. You really don't have to explain to me that we need to be careful what we say in front of kids. If I could give an example: kid comes up and says, "watch me throw the football". I say, "wow you can throw really good, you have a strong arm". Most of the autistism that I am dealing with is like a kids stuck at about 9 or 10yrs old. I try to treat them appropiately for their level of comprehension. I don't talk about their disabilities in front of them. If or when I pray for them, I try to obey what I feel to be the Holy Ghost. I have never experienced it to not be well recieved by the child. I don't know if you are aware, but lots of young chidren want prayer. Praying for them is not going to hurt them.

Being careful isn't always enough. In fact, it's usually never enough. Kids are a lot more perceptive and wiser than we give them credit for. And just because you're careful, how about everyone in your personal circle? This thread started off with a question, which was quickly shown to not be as sincere as it first seemed, since it became clear pretty quickly, you already believed something about that which you asked. You wondered if some cases of autism were really demonic possession. When asked for the details about why you were wondering that, it came out, through your own words, that you already believed it to be the case. So, you weren't wholly devoid of a view, seeking the knowledge and input of others; rather, you had a view, and you wanted to test the strength of that view against the knowledge and input of others.

This all speaks to worldview, brother. And that worldview bleeds into everything you say and do, whether you realize it or not. Keep silent in front of any autistic you meet, and it won't matter. Your worldview will declare itself in a myriad of other ways.

As far as there being harm in praying for someone, yes, prayer can be harmful. When it's offered for the wrong reasons, with impure motives, or when it is done as a perfunctory request, not with genuine faith, etc. Maybe you just do it at home by yourself. But how and why you pray for someone affects how you think of the person you pray for. It reinforces your view. If you think someone is backslidden and pray for them accordingly, you will begin to treat that person as backslidden, whether it's true or not. Same if you think an autistic is demonized. It can't be helped. It's the reality and nature of things.

I don't know about accuracy of all these online statistcs, but this all the more reason to pray for them.

But we're not just talking about general, everyday prayer, are we? We're talking about asking God to cast a demon out of someone. That's something very different.

the title of this thread is not the title of a sunday school lesson or a sermon I would preach.

But why not? Why not publicly declare what you privately believe? If you think some instances of autism are the result of demon possession, it behooves you to be honest with the autistics in your life. Otherwise, you're just hiding and risking hypocrisy in the process.

It was just a quick title to attract people to comment on the thread. So we can have dialogue. We all learn that way.

The rest of the thread shows this isn't case. The title of this thread wasn't just a quick title to attract attention. You bolstered your belief about some autistics being demonized with several posts this far in. So, own the title of the thread, brother.

Somewhere early in this thread I think you have perceived me to be cruel to autistic kids and you needed to set me free from my archaic way of thinking. It may not give you any peace at night, but I promise you that I am not going to be discussing demonic possession over these kids, nor will I try to scream and yell a devil out of them. I don't see Bible for having to do all of that anyway.

Fair enough, but no, I didn't perceive you as being cruel to autistic kids. Rather, the worldview you have clearly espoused regarding some autistics being demon possessed has the capacity to cause you to become cruel toward autistic kids, if only you could see it. There is a reason why in our language, there's such a phrase as "demonizing" someone. It means to vilify someone for being different, for being not like us, being on the outside, not of the norm, not because there is anything inherently evil about said one, but only because we perceive that one to be so, because they don't fit within our own prejudiced parameters of acceptability. Autistics are already on the outside looking in. They don't need to be pushed even further away with accusations of demonization. It does nothing to help them. If a person truly has a demon, God will force it to manifest. You won't have to wonder and discuss it with strangers on a message board.

If prayer hurts people, then I guess I am a cruel person.

Come on now. And you wonder why I think you're triggered and being defensive and irrational???

Kids become grown ups. No matter what happened in your childhood it is not an excuse for you to repeat those mistakes. Jesus died on the cross for the curse of sin. I don't have to let those sins against me be a hangup in my future. It doesn't matter who you are, if you don't forgive and move forward, you won't receive forgiveness. that is the Bible. No matter how much you tippy toe around things, people are going to get hurt. If Autism makes people more susceptable to hurt and heartache, then that is all the more reason to pray for them.

Some kids don't survive their childhood, brother, but kill themselves or are murdered before they've had a chance to grow up and heal through the hurt, autistic or otherwise.

But if they do make it through, that's where you and I and the saints in general can come in. Remember what the prophet declared about Jesus: a bruised reed He shall not break and a smoking flax He will not quench. This was in the context of the Messiah as spiritual/supernatural healer. If we are going to truly be Christ like, and heal like He healed, we have to have the same level of delicacy, the same level of compassion and gentleness. Platitudes and philosophical and academic discussions won't cut it.

I disagree. You choose to believe that autism is not an infirmity, but that it is just a different way of how people think. The whole course of this dialogue you have demonstrated some of the reasons why they need healing.

I have never once demonstrated that autistics needs to be healed of their autism. So, if the above is your take away, then either I suck at communicating, or your antenna is busted.

If I have offended you because of someone that is close to you I am truly sorry. Sometimes we have the freedom to say what we think on an online forum like this because we have no personal connections to one another. In a way it is good because we are more likely to get peoples true opinions in this fashion. I don't want to forget that we are real people and that we must be careful to not causes offences. Thank you for the conversation.

Brother, please, let me reassure you. I am not offended by you. I am not now, and never was then. This isn't really about you or me. At least not exactly. As such, I haven't taken anything you've written personally. I take umbrage with the conclusion that autistic folks are autistic on account of being possessed by an evil spirit. I not only think that is wrong, I find it to be anti-reality. If an autistic has an evil spirit, it's not because he or she is autistic, or vice versa. Evil spirits do not cause autism. There may be demonized people in the world who are barely functional or whose behavior is mislabeled as being on the spectrum by those who don't know to recognize a demon as being the cause of someone's issues, but that's a different situation altogether. That demonized man or woman needs exorcism. And if they should receive it, you will see a marked improvement in their ability to function and behave. They will be in their right minds.

But the autistic who comes to Christ and is saved by Him remains autistic afterward, even if he or she were otherwise exorcized of an evil spirit. And I should know. I'm autistic.

[good samaritan]

Votive
I don't think this conversation has been heated. And if you're insulted, please accept my apologies. How words such as I have used affect a conversation entirely depends on whether or not such words are true and accurate to the situation and those involved. If a word or phrase is an insult, perhaps that may be the case, but whether or not that word or phrase is true, that's another thing entirely. You said you weren't triggered, defensive, or irrational? Fine, you're the best judge of your own situation. But the tone and demeanor and word choices in your posts in this thread to me speak otherwise. Go back and reread and see if you can see what I see. You might be surprised

Here is what you said the post before:

I thought it best to let this thread rest for a bit before responding, since, at least as it seems to me, things were getting perhaps a little too personal, and emotions and tensions were high.

Seams to me you where thinking things where getting heated.

Being careful isn't always enough. In fact, it's usually never enough. Kids are a lot more perceptive and wiser than we give them credit for. And just because you're careful, how about everyone in your personal circle? This thread started off with a question, which was quickly shown to not be as sincere as it first seemed, since it became clear pretty quickly, you already believed something about that which you asked. You wondered if some cases of autism were really demonic possession. When asked for the details about why you were wondering that, it came out, through your own words, that you already believed it to be the case. So, you weren't wholly devoid of a view, seeking the knowledge and input of others; rather, you had a view, and you wanted to test the strength of that view against the knowledge and input of others.

This all speaks to worldview, brother. And that worldview bleeds into everything you say and do, whether you realize it or not. Keep silent in front of any autistic you meet, and it won't matter. Your worldview will declare itself in a myriad of other ways.

As far as there being harm in praying for someone, yes, prayer can be harmful. When it's offered for the wrong reasons, with impure motives, or when it is done as a perfunctory request, not with genuine faith, etc. Maybe you just do it at home by yourself. But how and why you pray for someone affects how you think of the person you pray for. It reinforces your view. If you think someone is backslidden and pray for them accordingly, you will begin to treat that person as backslidden, whether it's true or not. Same if you think an autistic is demonized. It can't be helped. It's the reality and nature of things

I never said that I didn't have a view on the subject, but I am open to say I don't have the authority. Nor, am I the teacher on the subject. We all struggle in these areas of how to deal with infirmities. If you think the mode of prayer that I was speaking is excorcism, then I agree it could be harmful to cast a devil out of someone when there is no devil. prayer for healing in their body and mind is probably not going to harm them at all.

But why not? Why not publicly declare what you privately believe? If you think some instances of autism are the result of demon possession, it behooves you to be honest with the autistics in your life. Otherwise, you're just hiding and risking hypocrisy in the process.

I don't tell everyone that I think are an idiot that they are an idiot. It is not harmful to bridle your tongue. Also, I am not going to start making suggestions that autism and possession are the same because that is not what I think. I was suggesting that some cases may be.

Brother, please, let me reassure you. I am not offended by you. I am not now, and never was then. This isn't really about you or me. At least not exactly. As such, I haven't taken anything you've written personally. I take umbrage with the conclusion that autistic folks are autistic on account of being possessed by an evil spirit. I not only think that is wrong, I find it to be anti-reality. If an autistic has an evil spirit, it's not because he or she is autistic, or vice versa. Evil spirits do not cause autism. There may be demonized people in the world who are barely functional or whose behavior is mislabeled as being on the spectrum by those who don't know to recognize a demon as being the cause of someone's issues, but that's a different situation altogether. That demonized man or woman needs exorcism. And if they should receive it, you will see a marked improvement in their ability to function and behave. They will be in their right minds.

You do realize that was what I was getting at from the begining of this thread? There are cases of people labeled as autistic who are demonic oppressed or possessed. 17 pages of debate and now you say that there are cases that can be mislabeled. ok