Should we still observe the sabbath?

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So you can bow down to idols and take the Lord's name in vain without repercussions, then

I wouldn’t do those things because I could not and be full of the Holy Ghost. I still am not under mosaic law.

Where did God ever say that? Where does the Bible say "You obey the Fourth Commandment by "entering his rest"?

Isaiah 28:11-12
For with stammering lips and another tongue
will he speak to this people.
To whom he said,
This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest;
and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Hebrews 4:3-6
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Also, if you aren't obligated to obey any of the 10 Commandments, then why do you "keep the Sabbath" (by "entering his rest") to begin with?

The observance of the Sabbath is not taught to the NT church, but only likened to the OT Sabbath. I enter his rest because that is what the apostles taught.

So that means we can ignore it? The woman was made for the man so the man can ignore the woman and be a sodomite? The fact the Sabbath was made for man means there is (and thus never was) any actual obligation to obey God's commandment regarding it? This makes no sense.

This scripture is the basis for all OT law:

Matthew 22:37-39
-- Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Although, we are not under the law, the Holy Spirit working in us is going to lead us to following after Gods righteousness. Since the law was given to Israel to reveal Gods righteousness explicitly to the people of Israel, much of the OT laws will be similar to what is taught in the NT and felt in our hearts. The Sabbath has importance by its fulfillment and also its principle.

Mark 2:27
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

To prevent the overworking of servants and even the land, sabbaths (plural) where instituted. We still are obligated to not neglect the health and well being of others and our own bodies as well. So I. Other words we will give ourselves adequate rest and not abuse our fellow brethren. We no longer have to set a day to do that.

Pointing out sin and calling for repentance is "trying to make people sinners" and "counterproductive to what Jesus came to do"? What strange religion is this?

When you teach something that the NT apostles did not teach, it is actually worse than counterproductive.

Galatians 5:12-13
I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Romans 14:5-13
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

I don’t care if a person wants to stay home every Saturday and do nothing but pray and read their Bible. When you start teaching that people are in sin it is placing an offense in the way. What about that person with wife and children, who works mandatory Saturdays to make ends meat. Do you teach them to quit their job in order to leave that life of sin? That is going to be opposition to whether someone obeys the gospel. If you are right then preach on, but I am not of that persuasion.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I wouldn’t do those things because I could not and be full of the Holy Ghost. I still am not under mosaic law.

Why couldn't you be full of the Spirit while transgressing God's commandments? Guilty of one, guilty of all, right? Therefore if you can break one and be ok, you can break 'em all and be ok.

Isaiah 28:11-12
For with stammering lips and another tongue
will he speak to this people.
To whom he said,
This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest;
and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

No mention of the Sabbath being abolished or changed. Besides, the stammering lips and another tongue aren't the rest, it is the foreign invaders coming in as punishment for Israel's commandment breaking. He told the people about His rest, but they rejected His rest by breaking His covenant through willful disobedience. So He will speak to them through the foreigners because of their unbelief. Just like Paul explained in 1 Corinthians 14:21-22.

Hebrews 4:3-6
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

The passage teaches that God rested on the 7th day, and yet there is still a rest for His people to enter into. Further, the Exodus generation were prevented from entering that rest. Why? Because of their continued willful breaking of God's commandments, which was a sign of their unbelief. The ones who did not enter in were the adults 20 years old and up who came out of Egypt. God did not abolish the Fourth Commandment for the next generations, nor has He done so for us today.

You left off some verses:

Hebrews 4:7-9 KJV
Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. [8] For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. [9] There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Verse 9 in Greek literally says "Sabbath keeping therefore remains to the people of God", by the way.

In any event, the whole passage isn't arguing for an abolition of the Fourth Commandment. Instead it is pointing out that disobedience is unbelief and prevents one from entering God's rest.

The observance of the Sabbath is not taught to the NT church, but only likened to the OT Sabbath. I enter his rest because that is what the apostles taught.

The apostles taught that commandment breaking is sin and not allowed to Christians. There is no rest for the lawless.

This scripture is the basis for all OT law:

Matthew 22:37-39
-- Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Although, we are not under the law, the Holy Spirit working in us is going to lead us to following after Gods righteousness.

Which means the true Christian will not be willfully breaking God's commandments but will actually perform the commandments:

Romans 8:3-4 KJV
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

1 John 3:4-10 KJV
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. [5] And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. [6] Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. [7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. [8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. [9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [10] In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Since the law was given to Israel to reveal Gods righteousness explicitly to the people of Israel, much of the OT laws will be similar to what is taught in the NT and felt in our hearts. The Sabbath has importance by its fulfillment and also its principle.

You can't "fulfill" a commandment by breaking it. The NT is not a repeal of God's laws with new legislation put in their place. It is the writing of God's laws in the heart and mind of His child, which produces a person whose life manifests God's righteousness because they actually obey from the heart what God has wanted His people to be doing.

Mark 2:27
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Since your Father made the Sabbath for you, why would you reject it?

To prevent the overworking of servants and even the land, sabbaths (plural) where instituted. We still are obligated to not neglect the health and well being of others and our own bodies as well. So I. Other words we will give ourselves adequate rest and not abuse our fellow brethren. We no longer have to set a day to do that.

So God gives sabbaths to provide what is right and just, but Jesus came and freed us from such obligations? Now we just do as we feel right in our own eyes instead of what God says to do? Strange religion. Not for me, honestly.

When you teach something that the NT apostles did not teach, it is actually worse than counterproductive.

Yes, like teaching Christians it is okay to sin. Very bad, very sad, but many such cases.

Galatians 5:12-13
I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Liberty is not liberty to transgress and practice iniquity (lawlessness). Your argument is the same one used by people who claim gay relationships are ok for Christians.

Romans 14:5-13
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

No mention of the Sabbath. Instead, lots of talk about people's personal preferences about various days and vegetarianism vs omnivore diets. Paul isn't saying that the one who doesn't esteem what God esteems is allowed to do as they wilt, as if God's commandments are subject to our personal whims.

I don’t care if a person wants to stay home every Saturday and do nothing but pray and read their Bible. When you start teaching that people are in sin it is placing an offense in the way. What about that person with wife and children, who works mandatory Saturdays to make ends meat. Do you teach them to quit their job in order to leave that life of sin? That is going to be opposition to whether someone obeys the gospel. If you are right then preach on, but I am not of that persuasion.

Identifying sin is not putting an offense in anyone's way. This line of reasoning is ridiculous and soul destroying. What does it profit if you gain the world but lose your soul? If your right eye offends (causes you to sin), cut it off. Etc etc.

I noticed you didn't touch hide nor hair of the Scriptures I posted.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Exodus 20:10 KJV
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

According to the Bible, what is the Sabbath? (Ans. It is "the seventh day".)

I find it interesting that you ignored my reasoning prior to that statement. You're welcome to disagree, and feel free to point out my logical error; but please do so by addressing my entire point, not just picking and choosing certain portions.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

What is sin?

1 John 3:4 KJV
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law

Should Christians transgress the law of God?

1John has some confusing statements about sin, but let me try to explain.

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Here John says we all sin present tense.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Here John says we cannot sin if we are born again. So which is it. Here is how I reconcile the verses. 1 John 1:8 is referring to missing the mark. We all are going fail in some area of our lives at some point. 1 John 3:9 is referring to a lifestyle of sinning. When we have been born again we cannot be habitual sinners while being children of God.

The verse you quoted has nothing to do with breaking mosaic law. It is meaning that people practicing sin (lifestyle) they are lawless. The word for transgress the law is only translated in the KJV one time in that way. Every other time is translated iniquity or unrighteousness. It is certain it is not referring to breaking Mosaic Law.

Romans 6:1-2 KJV
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? [2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Does being "under grace" and not "under law" mean Christians can transgress God's law with impunity?

Again I believe Paul is talking about habitual sin and not just a single mistake. We will not continue in sin if we have been born again. This also is not referring to the breaking of Mosaic law.

Romans 6:15-16 KJV
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. [16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Does the new covenant cause people to forget about the commandments of God?

Hebrews 8:8-10
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


Hebrews 8:8-10 KJV
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The new covenant is written upon our hearts. It is just as binding on every child of God as the law of Moses to OT Israel. The verse you are using proves that we are not under the law of Moses.

How does one know if they truly have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ?

2 ways: the Holy Ghost Baptism and fruit of the Spirit

1 John 2:1-5 KJV
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: [2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Again this does not prove your point. The commands of God are not the mosaic law in the New Covenant. This scripture just assures of Jesus mercy if we miss the mark and forbids the habitual lifestyle of sin.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Jito463

God's Word never changes, but His principles build upon themselves. So just as Jesus said that "Thou shalt not (commit murder)" became "if you hate your brother, you've committed murder in your heart"; I truly believe that "remember the Sabbath day" has now transitioned to abiding in His rest, via the infilling of His Spirit.

That's not to say that I see anything wrong with a day of rest anyways. The principle is sound, even if I think the intent is different. However, this is why I don't care about the Saturday vs Sunday debate. It's meaningless to me, because the Sabbath is the rest we get from God, not a specific day of the week that we take off.

Originally Posted by Esaias

Exodus 20:10 KJV
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

According to the Bible, what is the Sabbath? (Ans. It is "the seventh day".)

Originally Posted by Jito463

I find it interesting that you ignored my reasoning prior to that statement. You're welcome to disagree, and feel free to point out my logical error; but please do so by addressing my entire point, not just picking and choosing certain portions.

You said you didn't care about it, so why address your reasoning? You said the reason you don't care is because the Sabbath is not a day of the week. The Bible however says otherwise.

As for your reasoning, it does not follow. Thou shalt not commit murder did not become thou shalt not hate your brother. If that were true and your reasoning about the Sabbath were correct, then committing actual murder would no longer be a sin! Absurdity!

By the way, thou shalt not hate your brother is found in the law of God:

Leviticus 19:17 KJV
Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

It is followed by the Second Greatest Commandment of all:

Leviticus 19:18 KJV
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.

Jesus was explaining to the people that contrary to rabbinic talmudic heresy, you cannot be outwardly appearing to be righteous while being inwardly a hateful uncircumcised-in-heart sinner and expect to get by.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

1John has some confusing statements about sin, but let me try to explain.

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Here John says we all sin present tense.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Here John says we cannot sin if we are born again. So which is it. Here is how I reconcile the verses. 1 John 1:8 is referring to missing the mark. We all are going fail in some area of our lives at some point. 1 John 3:9 is referring to a lifestyle of sinning. When we have been born again we cannot be habitual sinners while being children of God.

The verse you quoted has nothing to do with breaking mosaic law. It is meaning that people practicing sin (lifestyle) they are lawless. The word for transgress the law is only translated in the KJV one time in that way. Every other time is translated iniquity or unrighteousness. It is certain it is not referring to breaking Mosaic Law.




Again I believe Paul is talking about habitual sin and not just a single mistake. We will not continue in sin if we have been born again. This also is not referring to the breaking of Mosaic law.



Hebrews 8:8-10
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


Hebrews 8:8-10 KJV
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The new covenant is written upon our hearts. It is just as binding on every child of God as the law of Moses to OT Israel. The verse you are using proves that we are not under the law of Moses.



2 ways: the Holy Ghost Baptism and fruit of the Spirit



Again this does not prove your point. The commands of God are not the mosaic law in the New Covenant. This scripture just assures of Jesus mercy if we miss the mark and forbids the habitual lifestyle of sin.

I'll just let the apostle explain it (again):

1 John 3:4-10 KJV
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. [5] And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. [6] Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. [7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. [8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. [9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [10] In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Now, if you really think that when he says "sin is the transgression of the law" that he doesn't mean the law of God, well, all I can say is good luck with that.

And if transgressing the Fourth Commandment every single chance you get isn't a "habitual lifestyle of sin", well, good luck with that, too.

[Esaias]

By the way, the word "transgression of the law" is anomia, meaning "no law" or "lawlessness".

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 458: ἀνομία

ἀνομία, ἀνομίας, ἡ (ἄνομος);
1. properly, the condition of one without law — either because ignorant of it, or because violating it.

2. contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness: Matthew 23:28; Matthew 24:12; 2 Thessalonians 2:8 (T Tr text WH text; cf. ἁμαρτία, 1, p. 30f), 7; Titus 2:14; 1 John 3:4. opposed to ἡ δικαιοσύνη, 2 Corinthians 6:14; Hebrews 1:9 (not Tdf.) (Xenophon, mem. 1, 2, 24 ἀνομία μᾶλλον ἤ δικαιοσύνη χρώμενοι); and to ἡ δικαιοσύνη and ὁ ἁγιασμός, Romans 6:19 (τῇ ἀνομία εἰς τήν ἀνομίαν to iniquity — personified — in order to work iniquity); ποιεῖν τήν ἀνομίαν to do iniquity, act wickedly, Matthew 13:41; 1 John 3:4; in the same sense, ἐργάζεσθαι τήν ἀνομίαν, Matthew 7:23; plural αἱ ἀνομίαι manifestations of disregard for law, iniquities, evil deeds: Romans 4:7 (Psalm 31:1 ()); Hebrews 8:12 (R G L); Hebrews 10:17. (In Greek writings from (Herodotus 1, 96) Thucydides down; often in the Sept.) (Synonym: cf. Trench, § lxvi.; Tittm. 1:48; Ellicott on Titus 2:14.)

[Esaias]

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
iniquity, transgression, unrighteousness.
From anomos; illegality, i.e. Violation of law or (genitive case) wickedness -- iniquity, X transgress(-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

see GREEK anomos

[Esaias]

Why it was translated "iniquity":

INIQ'UITY, noun [Latin iniquitas; in and oequitas, equity.]

1. Injustice; unrighteousness; a deviation from rectitude; as the iniquity of war; the iniquity of the slave trade.

2. Want of rectitude in principle; as a malicious prosecution originating in the iniquity of the author.

3. A particular deviation from rectitude; a sin or crime; wickedness; any act of injustice.

Your iniquities have separated between you and your God. Isaiah 59:3.

4. Original want of holiness or depravity.

I was shapen in iniquity Psalms 51:2.
- Webster's 1828 Dictionary of the English Language.

Lawlessness and iniquity are the same thing. When you read "iniquity" in your Bible, it means "lawlessness" or "lawless deed". In other words, CRIME. That is, TRANSGRESSION or VIOLATION OF LAW.

[Esaias]

Romans 6:16-20 KJV
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? [17] But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. [18] Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. [19] I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. [20] For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Here, sin is identified as iniquity and wickedness. Disobedience = sin = wickedness and iniquity (lawlessness). Sin is thus disobedience to God, wickedness, and lawlessness (crime, transgression or violation of the law). It is the opposite of righteousness, obedience, equity, justice, goodness, etc.