"an uncommon seed for an uncommon harvest" What is the un-common seed?

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

lol, oh yeah. I forgot Paul put that there

Well...every book has a cover!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Pianoman

Well...every book has a cover!

"Cover Art Designed by Paul the Apostle" :-)

[tv1a]

The prosperity doctrine leads people to believe that they will never suffer and I think that is the conflict in the teaching, IMO. It reminds me of the Lottery

The only people I've seen pontificate this doctrine run in ultra conservative circles.

What I've gotten from prosperity doctrine is reliance on God and trusting God will do what he promised.

The common fallacy is that prosperity doctrine does not teach there will not be hard times. Mike Murdock tells the story many times of how he was so broke he couldn't afford furniture for his appartment. Many other prosperity preachers have gone through hard times and have continuously testified of hard times before experiencing breakthrough.

If God's will is for his children to prosper, than it is probable that the christians who are not prospering are not lining up with the God's principles of prosperity.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I don't believe that anyone was saying they don't believe in prosperity. The point really is that sometimes God takes you through a time of suffering to build character in you.

What we are instructed, as way of example, in Philippians 4:12-13:

12 - "I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

13 - "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."

We are not always going to be prosperous, but we can always be faithful.

The prosperity doctrine leads people to believe that they will never suffer and I think that is the conflict in the teaching, IMO. It reminds me of the Lottery.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by tv1a

The only people I've seen pontificate this doctrine run in ultra conservative circles.

What I've gotten from prosperity doctrine is reliance on God and trusting God will do what he promised.

The common fallacy is that prosperity doctrine does not teach there will not be hard times. Mike Murdock tells the story many times of how he was so broke he couldn't afford furniture for his appartment. Many other prosperity preachers have gone through hard times and have continuously testified of hard times before experiencing breakthrough.

If God's will is for his children to prosper, than it is probable that the christians who are not prospering are not lining up with the God's principles of prosperity.

In the end to prosper, if that is what you are saying. What about Joseph? He didn't always prosper and that is my point.

The Prosperity Doctrine, for most people, is not in balance with the scripture.

I'm sure MM tells a great story. I'm not speaking about or against the man.

I'm just saying, from the same experience as MM, that I have not always prospered, but I knew I was in the will of God and that all things would work together. If you agree with this, than we have no argument.

The Prosperity Doctrine, IMO, overrides the scripture I quoted in Philippians saying - "I know BOTH how to be abased I know how to abound..."

Give, Give, Give and you will be blessed. I've been in a place where I gave money, time, energy and got nothing in return except food on my table while everyone around me was being blessed financially. I cried out to God and He gave me this scripture in Psalm 73:

2-5 "But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped. For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm. They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like other men...

21-26 "Thus my heart was grieved, and I was pricked in my reins. So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee. Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand. Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever...."

For that time in my life that scripture applied.

So, yes, I am prospering, but at one time I didn't know if I would ever see it, much like Daniel in the Lions Den, Joseph in Prison, and Job in suffering.

He does want to 'enlarge our tents', so to speak, but sometimes you start out with an empty hand and you have to purpose in your heart that you will be faithful regardless - then He can prosper you. Sometimes He does it anyway, but I'd prefer to have the issue settled in my heart before He did.

I am just saying that if someone is preaching that you will prosper and not telling you a balance in walking by faith alone, which is a road we will all trod at one time or another - than I am against the teaching.

[tv1a]

I agree with almost all of your post. I think Joseph prosepered at every level he was at. He found favor with his father, Potiphar, the jailer, and ultimately Pharoah. Temporary setbacks do not always equate the lack of prosperity. Joseph had to let go of family ties to get to Egypt. Joseph had to let go of success at Potiphar's house to be second in command at the prison. Joseph had to let go of the prison keys to get Pharoah's ring.

I am in the same boat you are. I haven't always 'financially' prospered. Still working on that one. But I have been taking steps to ensure I follow Biblical principles for prosperity.

The way I interpret Prosperity doctrine is even if God takes everything I have away, I can follow God's principles and eventually everything will work out.

I know there are a few hacks out there who abuse prosperity doctrine. I know one guy who used the prayer of Jabez to pray for a new computer. I do find it tough to swallow the tbn style telethons and the district national fundraisers where they give scripture to suggest God wants people to give offbeat amounts of money, like $23 here, $57 there. I don't buy all that stuff. I do buy the fact of listening to God in my sacrifical giving. I buy the fact there are blessings in paying my tithes and offerings.

My definition of prosperity isn't always forking over cash. My definition of prosperity is to use God's blessings to me as a tool to minister to others. Time, money, possessions. Everything I have is dedicated to God. God gave me a van at a real low price to take people to church. The other day my wife and I used the van to help an elderly man in our church move into a new house.

Prosperity is a relative term. There will always be someone richer than us. We may hate to think this, but there will always be people poorer than us.

Good post PO. I enjoy the dialog.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

In the end to prosper, if that is what you are saying. What about Joseph? He didn't always prosper and that is my point.

The Prosperity Doctrine, for most people, is not in balance with the scripture.

I'm sure MM tells a great story. I'm not speaking about or against the man.

I'm just saying, from the same experience as MM, that I have not always prospered, but I knew I was in the will of God and that all things would work together. If you agree with this, than we have no argument.

The Prosperity Doctrine, IMO, overrides the scripture I quoted in Philippians saying - "I know BOTH how to be abased I know how to abound..."

Give, Give, Give and you will be blessed. I've been in a place where I gave money, time, energy and got nothing in return except food on my table while everyone around me was being blessed financially. I cried out to God and He gave me this scripture in Psalm 73:

2-5 "But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped. For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm. They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like other men...

21-26 "Thus my heart was grieved, and I was pricked in my reins. So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee. Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand. Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever...."

For that time in my life that scripture applied.

So, yes, I am prospering, but at one time I didn't know if I would ever see it, much like Daniel in the Lions Den, Joseph in Prison, and Job in suffering.

He does want to 'enlarge our tents', so to speak, but sometimes you start out with an empty hand and you have to purpose in your heart that you will be faithful regardless - then He can prosper you. Sometimes He does it anyway, but I'd prefer to have the issue settled in my heart before He did.

I am just saying that if someone is preaching that you will prosper and not telling you a balance in walking by faith alone, which is a road we will all trod at one time or another - than I am against the teaching.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by tv1a

I agree with almost all of your post. I think Joseph prosepered at every level he was at. He found favor with his father, Potiphar, the jailer, and ultimately Pharoah. Temporary setbacks do not always equate the lack of prosperity. Joseph had to let go of family ties to get to Egypt. Joseph had to let go of success at Potiphar's house to be second in command at the prison. Joseph had to let go of the prison keys to get Pharoah's ring.

I am in the same boat you are. I haven't always 'financially' prospered. Still working on that one. But I have been taking steps to ensure I follow Biblical principles for prosperity.

The way I interpret Prosperity doctrine is even if God takes everything I have away, I can follow God's principles and eventually everything will work out.

I know there are a few hacks out there who abuse prosperity doctrine. I know one guy who used the prayer of Jabez to pray for a new computer. I do find it tough to swallow the tbn style telethons and the district national fundraisers where they give scripture to suggest God wants people to give offbeat amounts of money, like $23 here, $57 there. I don't buy all that stuff. I do buy the fact of listening to God in my sacrifical giving. I buy the fact there are blessings in paying my tithes and offerings.

My definition of prosperity isn't always forking over cash. My definition of prosperity is to use God's blessings to me as a tool to minister to others. Time, money, possessions. Everything I have is dedicated to God. God gave me a van at a real low price to take people to church. The other day my wife and I used the van to help an elderly man in our church move into a new house.

Prosperity is a relative term. There will always be someone richer than us. We may hate to think this, but there will always be people poorer than us.

Good post PO. I enjoy the dialog.

I guess I'm a little hard on the prosperity doctrine for obvious reasons.

The Lord woke me up in the middle of the night, some years ago, and told me to quit my job. I had an excellent sales job. $1,200 per month, $500 car allowance and 50% commission. I cut Him off in prayer a few times before that. Stone cold, cut it off!

Well, the whole bottom fell out for us for a number of years after I finally obeyed. We went through more church trials - Lord - and it isn't fun when you are having financial trouble too!

We gave in offerings, tithed and struggled. Sometimes it just seemed so unfair. But on my knees I was righted again!

We are not in that financial situation anymore, but it was very hard. I felt very stupid and poor having had such a nice job and home. I suppose it was a pride issue to boot.

Anyway, when I hear "prosperity doctrine" it just doesn't seem to reach out and balance the whole out. It seems to speak of financial blessing as a certainty, when I know good and well it doesn't always go that way. You can give and give and suffer and suffer and none of it makes any sense, at times.

I believe every child of God, like Joseph, will prosper in areas, but the prosperity doctrine, IMO, only embraces the guaranteed financial blessing and that is what I am against.

I was paying bills yesterday and thinking of the times when I couldn't pay them all with one check. God has been good. I learned BOTH how to be abased and how to abound.....

Originally Posted by Old Paths

SCRIPTURE!

Awww come on, SISTER Murphy, what's SCRIPTURE got to do with it.

If it worked for the trinitarian false profit it will work for ___________.

Yer right, Elder, how silly I am to ask for scripture when somebody somewhere says it works! Where is my faith, anyway? Thank you, thank you so much for saving me from going down that old path of checking the Word of God.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Have to agree with you on that one!

No wonder so many are involved in lotteries. lol!

Could be. I can just hear it now:

Pastor So And So, me and my husband need a little help from the church to pay our rent this month. We just felt so strong that we needed to buy one hundred MegaBucks tickets today, 'cause its 07-07-07, and somebody said 7 is God's perfect number, so that makes it really lucky, and we just were sure that we would win 'cause we prayed over those tickets (and my husband called his charismatic cousin and she said she felt a witness in the spirit, too), so we was sure we would win, and then we could bless the church with a big offering!! Well, somebody must have had doubt somewheres, 'cause we didn't win a single dollar, and we used our rent money to buy them tickets. Can you help us out?

Originally Posted by tv1a

I agree with almost all of your post. I think Joseph prosepered at every level he was at. He found favor with his father, Potiphar, the jailer, and ultimately Pharoah. Temporary setbacks do not always equate the lack of prosperity. Joseph had to let go of family ties to get to Egypt. Joseph had to let go of success at Potiphar's house to be second in command at the prison. Joseph had to let go of the prison keys to get Pharoah's ring.

I am in the same boat you are. I haven't always 'financially' prospered. Still working on that one. But I have been taking steps to ensure I follow Biblical principles for prosperity.

The way I interpret Prosperity doctrine is even if God takes everything I have away, I can follow God's principles and eventually everything will work out.

I know there are a few hacks out there who abuse prosperity doctrine. I know one guy who used the prayer of Jabez to pray for a new computer. I do find it tough to swallow the tbn style telethons and the district national fundraisers where they give scripture to suggest God wants people to give offbeat amounts of money, like $23 here, $57 there. I don't buy all that stuff. I do buy the fact of listening to God in my sacrifical giving. I buy the fact there are blessings in paying my tithes and offerings.

My definition of prosperity isn't always forking over cash. My definition of prosperity is to use God's blessings to me as a tool to minister to others. Time, money, possessions. Everything I have is dedicated to God. God gave me a van at a real low price to take people to church. The other day my wife and I used the van to help an elderly man in our church move into a new house.

Prosperity is a relative term. There will always be someone richer than us. We may hate to think this, but there will always be people poorer than us.

Good post PO. I enjoy the dialog.

Joseph had to 'let go' of his father's house? He didn't get to make the choice! Joseph had to 'let go' of success at Potiphar's house? Puleeze! That 'choice' was made for him by a wicked lying woman! Joseph had to 'let go' of the prison keys to get Pharoah's ring? Come now, what bible story book have you been reading lately? All of these things were situations in which Joseph had no control, none, zero, zip, nada.

[tv1a]

Joseph made the choice not to do the whatuzzi with Potiphar's wife. That set into motion the next phase of his life. Joseph interpreted the dreams of the butler and the baker. He asked one of them to put in a good word for him at the palace.

God won't move a person to the next level unless they want to move. If he did, the Children of Israel wouldn't have wondered in the wilderness for 40 years waiting for the unbelievers to die off.

The Bible is full of examples of people letting go the good in order to have the great. Sometimes getting to the great takes more than one step.

Originally Posted by SISTER Murphy

Joseph had to 'let go' of his father's house? He didn't get to make the choice! Joseph had to 'let go' of success at Potiphar's house? Puleeze! That 'choice' was made for him by a wicked lying woman! Joseph had to 'let go' of the prison keys to get Pharoah's ring? Come now, what bible story book have you been reading lately? All of these things were situations in which Joseph had no control, none, zero, zip, nada.