Tulsa Report Day 2

[Apprehended]

I don't think many here are thinking this issue through.

Be that as it may...

I don't want to ever hear any of those men, especially those six, preach a message on the doctrine of submission. Neither do I want to ever hear them preach a message on brotherly love and UNITY...especially if has to do with being in one mind and in one accord.

All things are NOT...are NOT what they appear to be on the surface.

Somebody...anybody....

Turn your headlights on and slow down. The bridge is OUT up ahead.

[RevBuddy]

Steadfast...I was JUST kidding...take it easy!!

What are the OTHER ISSUES?

[RevBuddy]

In other words, use whatever font you'd like...I was kidding you...

but, what are the other "straws" before the last "straw?"

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by RevBuddy

In other words, use whatever font you'd like...I was kidding you...

but, what are the other "straws" before the last "straw?"

I know that you did not ask me but, if I may...

It is not about the proverbial straws at all. It is not about what someone else might be doing within the fellowship. It is about unrest and discontentment in the soul...a dissatisfaction, a utopian longing of idealistic aspirations crippled by deception. When the light fades, ghosts appear and the peace of God takes His flight, the mind is left to wander without an anchor while continually seeking yet another milestone of perfection in the flesh.

Such men trouble you. Paul said that he would that they were CUT OFF. But Jesus said, "Peace give I unto you, not as the world gives, give I, but my peace. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither be afraid."

Originally Posted by Apprehended

I know that you did not ask me but, if I may...

It is not about the proverbial straws at all. It is not about what someone else might be doing within the fellowship. It is about unrest and discontentment in the soul...a dissatisfaction, a utopian longing of idealistic aspirations crippled by deception. When the light fades, ghosts appear and the peace of God takes His flight, the mind is left to wander without an anchor while continually seeking yet another milestone of perfection in the flesh.

Such men trouble you. Paul said that he would that they were CUT OFF. But Jesus said, "Peace give I unto you, not as the world gives, give I, but my peace. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither be afraid."

Well, Apprehended, you obviously are in disagreement with my belief that it was a matter of 'you've pushed me far enough; I'm not being pushed any further.' I genuinely believe it and will continue to believe it (even if some claim that is a lie as well).

If you are so adamant about them being 'cut off' then Tulsa isn't your problem... it's your answer.

I may not be among the Tulsa group... but I stand confident in their right to align themselves with those whose value system more closely matches theirs.

To allow anything less is to deny God the right to put those values in them.

God bless the Tulsa crowd with great Apostolic revival. I can only hope the UPC has a mighty outpouring as well.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Well, Apprehended, you obviously are in disagreement with my belief that it was a matter of 'you've pushed me far enough; I'm not being pushed any further.' I genuinely believe it and will continue to believe it (even if some claim that is a lie as well).

If you are so adamant about them being 'cut off' then Tulsa isn't your problem... it's your answer.

I may not be among the Tulsa group... but I stand confident in their right to align themselves with those whose value system more closely matches theirs.

To allow anything less is to deny God the right to put those values in them.

God bless the Tulsa crowd with great Apostolic revival. I can only hope the UPC has a mighty outpouring as well.

Thanks for your response.

I certainly agree that they have a constitutional right.

Whatever happened to the principle of submission? Or whatever happend to the principle of "obey them that have the rule over you." Whatever happened to the idea of humility when everything does not go "MY" way?

If there are powers that are ordained of God, as all of these bretheren teach, what is so objectionable to submitting to that power? If we are going to CONTEND for the faith that was once delivered unto the saints, before whom are we going to contend...the world? No. We must contend for THAT faith before all of whom is departing from that faith.

Jude 4 makes that plain..."For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness..." Little good it does for preachers to preach to preachers who all preach the same thing, unless of course they are just trying to see who can strut the most and outdo each other.

Your prayer that God bless the Tulsa crowd is mine as well. Hopefully, the Lord will lead them to believe and to accept the doctrine of submission, humility and unity, even when everything does not go their way.

Again, thanks for your response.

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Thanks for your response.

I certainly agree that they have a constitutional right.

Whatever happened to the principle of submission? Or whatever happend to the principle of "obey them that have the rule over you." Whatever happened to the idea of humility when everything does not go "MY" way?

If there are powers that are ordained of God, as all of these bretheren teach, what is so objectionable to submitting to that power? If we are going to CONTEND for the faith that was once delivered unto the saints, before whom are we going to contend...the world? No. We must contend for THAT faith before all of whom is departing from that faith.

Jude 4 makes that plain..."For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness..." Little good it does for preachers to preach to preachers who all preach the same thing, unless of course they are just trying to see who can strut the most and outdo each other.

Your prayer that God bless the Tulsa crowd is mine as well. Hopefully, the Lord will lead them to believe and to accept the doctrine of submission, humility and unity, even when everything does not go their way.

Again, thanks for your response.

If I were utilize the wholesale 'anything that pulls away isn't submissive' reasoning then I would venture to say that Paul wouldn't have made that break from Christian killer to New Testament writer. He broke away from the religous system he no longer could walk in agreement with.

What about others who have walked away from religious systems they could no longer agree with? Was Martin Luther lacking 'submission' to the Roman Catholic Church a bad thing?

While NOBODY believes in spiritual submission than I do I also realize that there are times that the Bible actually CONDONES certain parting of ways. Remember that whole "can two walk together except they agree" and the "house divided against itself" stuff?

I'm sorry... I'm submitted to the extreme to the spiritual authroities in my world. However, my submission is to a REAL Pastor and Elders who aren't afraid to tell me the truth. While I may respect them to the uttermost... I've never feigned a lot of deep spiritual submission to a system of elected officials who don't even know my name. To do so would eliminate the 'autonomy' of the local Church.

The United Pentecostal Church is a great organization. The greatest on the face of the Earth when it comes to promoting this precious truth. I guess that is what confuses me the most... if some of you weren't ripping on the Tulsa crew you would be ripping on the UPC. How is it now that we have so many fierce 'protectors'?

The clear conscience that I have today is a result of the fact that I'm not against EITHER group. In fact, while some of you are seeing me as a 'protector' of the Tulsa crowd, the truth is that I'm protectecting the right of both to do what they feel is right!

[RevBuddy]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

I know that you did not ask me but, if I may...

It is not about the proverbial straws at all. It is not about what someone else might be doing within the fellowship. It is about unrest and discontentment in the soul...a dissatisfaction, a utopian longing of idealistic aspirations crippled by deception. When the light fades, ghosts appear and the peace of God takes His flight, the mind is left to wander without an anchor while continually seeking yet another milestone of perfection in the flesh.

Such men trouble you. Paul said that he would that they were CUT OFF. But Jesus said, "Peace give I unto you, not as the world gives, give I, but my peace. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither be afraid."

I agree with your statement in principle.

I believe I understand your point - it's about discontented brethren with an unattainable churchview of an absolute Church living ABSOLUTELY. If the early church is any example, and I believe it definitely is, there is nothing absolute about the church at all as it relates to personal and corporate behavior, at least in terms of individual and collective holiness. The writings of the Apostle Paul are fully of corrections and admonishments to these congregations. And, they in turn, were continually attempting to live a godly life in this present world.

The trouble with this unattainable churchview is that it mimics the Old Testament law, and in doing so, places an unrealistic performance level on those who attempt to conform to it. Israelites could not, in fact, live up to the Law. It was God's Law; it was His will, and it was perfect. But, real men and women were incapable (even given a sincere desire to obey) of meeting the Law's high standards.

The UC among us is often characterized by the inability to recognize the falibility of saints. I realize this is a generalization of the movement, and I'm willing to give and take as necessary, but GENERALLY, the final destination (heaven or hell) of entire congregations is based SOLELY on the individual's conformity and ABSOLUTE obedience to a given set of standards (laws, little "L"). In this case, it is NOT God's law; it is NOT His will and it is NOT perfect. Yes, the Holy Ghost is present to guide and empower the NT convert(at least, that is my assumption for this argument), but if the Holy Ghost is not "teaching" these man-made standards, then the individual will not be "led" to conform or obey. It will, then, be left to the enforcer of the standard to step in. This enforcer usually takes a step-by-step approach in "encouraging" compliance...

1. friendly persuation...encouraging the individual to reach for "more" of God..a great level of sacrifice...and greater dedication and intimacy with God
2. friendly intimidation...educating the individual on the negative aspects of noncompliance, i.e., ineligible for positions, leadership, use, etc. etc....
3. friendly pressure (always with a smile)...admonishing the indivual on the need for maintaining a standard of holiness...achieving a place with God that few others can't...
4. unfriendly pressure and intimidation...warning the individual of ungodliness and the dangers of loving the world and the things in the world...clearly intimating that noncompliance will result in separation of God and His love...
5. unfriendly separation, shunning and expulsion...judging the individual to be found wanting and unworthy of further effort...a lost cause.

There are no doubt other steps in between. However, if unbiblical standards are taught as "salvation issues," where is the Holy Ghost's role in perfecting saints? The Holy Ghost is circumvented by the "under-shepherd." Now the Law is rewritten by the "man of God." If the Word doesn't completely address the issue, the "under-shepherd" clarifies the missing Word with His word...and makes it critical by assigning it an ABSOLUTE value - conform and make heaven...do not conform and be assured of hell's fire.

This phenomena is much more serious than we can imagine - to institutionalize our convictions and write them in between the lines of His Word - is to risk hell's fire - not on the part of the saint, but on the part of the "new lawgiver!" It is a strange fire brought from "without the camp."

Enough of my brilliance...

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by RevBuddy

I agree with your statement in principle.

I believe I understand your point - it's about discontented brethren with an unattainable churchview of an absolute Church living ABSOLUTELY. If the early church is any example, and I believe it definitely is, there is nothing absolute about the church at all as it relates to personal and corporate behavior, at least in terms of individual and collective holiness. The writings of the Apostle Paul are fully of corrections and admonishments to these congregations. And, they in turn, were continually attempting to live a godly life in this present world.

The trouble with this unattainable churchview is that it mimics the Old Testament law, and in doing so, places an unrealistic performance level on those who attempt to conform to it. Israelites could not, in fact, live up to the Law. It was God's Law; it was His will, and it was perfect. But, real men and women were incapable (even given a sincere desire to obey) of meeting the Law's high standards.

The UC among us is often characterized by the inability to recognize the falibility of saints. I realize this is a generalization of the movement, and I'm willing to give and take as necessary, but GENERALLY, the final destination (heaven or hell) of entire congregations is based SOLELY on the individual's conformity and ABSOLUTE obedience to a given set of standards (laws, little "L"). In this case, it is NOT God's law; it is NOT His will and it is NOT perfect. Yes, the Holy Ghost is present to guide and empower the NT convert(at least, that is my assumption for this argument), but if the Holy Ghost is not "teaching" these man-made standards, then the individual will not be "led" to conform or obey. It will, then, be left to the enforcer of the standard to step in. This enforcer usually takes a step-by-step approach in "encouraging" compliance...

1. friendly persuation...encouraging the individual to reach for "more" of God..a great level of sacrifice...and greater dedication and intimacy with God
2. friendly intimidation...educating the individual on the negative aspects of noncompliance, i.e., ineligible for positions, leadership, use, etc. etc....
3. friendly pressure (always with a smile)...admonishing the indivual on the need for maintaining a standard of holiness...achieving a place with God that few others can't...
4. unfriendly pressure and intimidation...warning the individual of ungodliness and the dangers of loving the world and the things in the world...clearly intimating that noncompliance will result in separation of God and His love...
5. unfriendly separation, shunning and expulsion...judging the individual to be found wanting and unworthy of further effort...a lost cause.

There are no doubt other steps in between. However, if unbiblical standards are taught as "salvation issues," where is the Holy Ghost's role in perfecting saints? The Holy Ghost is circumvented by the "under-shepherd." Now the Law is rewritten by the "man of God." If the Word doesn't completely address the issue, the "under-shepherd" clarifies the missing Word with His word...and makes it critical by assigning it an ABSOLUTE value - conform and make heaven...do not conform and be assured of hell's fire.

This phenomena is much more serious than we can imagine - to institutionalize our convictions and write them in between the lines of His Word - is to risk hell's fire - not on the part of the saint, but on the part of the "new lawgiver!" It is a strange fire brought from "without the camp."

Enough of my brilliance...

Brilliant indeed.

I appreciate your grasp on the doctrine of grace, seen here in these words.

Grace should endure unto graciousness among all who name the name of Jesus, not being so quick to contend for what a wider view of grace and graciousness would consider so small...so small.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Brilliant indeed.

I appreciate your grasp on the doctrine of grace, seen here in these words.

Grace should endure unto graciousness among all who name the name of Jesus, not being so quick to contend for what a wider view of grace and graciousness would consider so small...so small.

This would make a great quote.