Massive shakeup going on!

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Thanks.

In truth, I do not agree that pastors should be able to run churches like they own them, nor do I feel it's right for a pastor to get up in the pulpit and make sudden and drastic changes to the standards and mores of existing, established churches.

However, the danger I see is that when that does happen, and it will, many congregations don't know how to deal with it Biblically.

In nearly every other area of our lives, we are taught to "stand still and see the salvation of the Lord", we're taught to "Trust God and HE will work it out", we're taught that "No weapon formed against us shall prosper", etc.

So, if we TRULY believe those scriptures, and we TRULY believe the principles of submission that God has set forth in scripture, we understand that if the pastor is wrong, God will take care of it. And, if God is not moving quickly enough for us, and we truly believe that our salvation and the salvation of our children is in danger, then WE need to walk away.

There is PLENTY of scripture that condones walking away from those who walk in darkness, there is plenty of scripture where people couldn't agree and parted ways, and both stayed saved...........there is plenty of scripture encouraging us to fellowship with likeminded believers. Nothing wrong with making an amiable split, in my opinion.

However, I still can't find scripture that condones, or even allows, the congregation to overthrow the pastor.

Sorry brother but this bull feathers.

Here's a scenario for you Br Phelps:

A congregation of 125 regular worshipers just finished paying off their 2 million dollar property.

Their pastor retires and the church elects a new pastor.

This new pastor is all swell for about a year. Then he begins to preach theat cut hair is OK tatoo's are OK.

Just say the "Sinner's prayer" and you'll be saved.

Baptism is OK if you want to , otherwise it's not necesary.

This new pastor has not invested dollar one in this assembly, the membership is very upset with this new fangled teaching.

BUT Br Phelps thay are to be quiet or just walk away from the church THEY built ACCORDING to YOU and give it over to this PASTOR just because he is part of the five fold ministry?????

This pastor on a clergy class pedastal thing we have going today came out of the Catholic Church. it was not a part of the NT church.....they ALL were fellow laborers in the kingdom of God.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

LOL. Strawman argument. As I said before, the body needs to work with all of its members in sync.

Oh, and I agree with your post to FAL. I just don't think it fits the bill for the "the great Apostle Paul had some strong teaching about the saints not controlling the pastor" statement. The pastor serves the people, and all the people serve the Lord. There should be no "control" among those who serve and are being served in this world.

What you say is true..... BUT and IF there is a minister who is lording it over God's heritage what does the Bible say to do?

First course....would be to pray, seek God for direction, go to the pastor and let him know that you think he is overstretching his authority. He replies that you are in rebellion.

What do you do then? Do you spread your voice among the sheep? What does the Bible advocate?

I know of a poster who is asking this question right now on another forum because of a situation he is going through.

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

What you say is true..... BUT and IF there is a minister who is lording it over God's heritage what does the Bible say to do?

The bible tells ministers not to do this..... the bible tells us if we see a brother in a fault to go to that brother and gently restore him

If my pastor (brother) does this i am told to go to him and gently restore such a one in the faith

Matthew 18:15
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Would say that these scripture do nat apply to a minister??

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

The bible tells ministers not to do this..... the bible tells us if we see a brother in a fault to go to that brother and gently restore him

If my pastor (brother) does this i am told to go to him and gently restore such a one in the faith

Thanks for a Biblical answer.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

What you say is true..... BUT and IF there is a minister who is lording it over God's heritage what does the Bible say to do?

First course....would be to pray, seek God for direction, go to the pastor and let him know that you think he is overstretching his authority. He replies that you are in rebellion.

What do you do then? Do you spread your voice among the sheep? What does the Bible advocate?

I know of a poster who is asking this question right now on another forum because of a situation he is going through.

It can depend. If the "overstretching his authority" is an ideological difference and others in the church see it as such, then you should simply agree to disagree and find another pastor.

However, if the problem imperils the well being of others then you should speak out.

I don't think there are any easy answers here. Anything you do will involve some hurt feelings. Presumably, you (or that other poster) has already invested a lot of time and a big piece of their heart to the church. Sometimes you have to look at the "needs of the many;" and as a Christian that means taking some hits on your own chin while keeping a smile on your face. This is not an easy task.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I don't think there are any easy answers here. Anything you do will involve some hurt feelings. Presumably, you (or that other poster) has already invested a lot of time and a big piece of their heart to the church. Sometimes you have to look at the "needs of the many;" and as a Christian that means taking some hits on your own chin while keeping a smile on your face. This is not an easy task.

I'm not speaking of myself, but I can understand your point about putting the needs of the many first. We ought not to please ourselves.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

Mike..I am not advocating overthrowing a pastor. i am advocating that every church needs a spiritual board of Elders in place in the event a pastor goes bad.

A pastor that will not listen to the consel of godly men and women in his church has a head problem

You mentioned sevearl Old Testament examples of people like David that would not kill Saul. So I'll post some Old testament scripture that advocates seeking consel of others in making decisiions.

Proverbs 11:14
Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Proverbs 12:15
The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

Proverbs 15:22
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

A pastor is a fellow laborer in the work of God..when he sets himself up as a pope, that is in error.

Good scriptures, and I agree with your first statement.

As I said, I, too am against the pastor being "lords over God's heritage".

However, I've seen too many situations where, even when the pastor was wrong, people came against him to overthrow him, or change his direction, and many problems resulted. God will not honor wrong actions, even when there is seeming justification.

I've seen too many people develop the wrong spirit even when they were doing what they believed to be the right thing.

I've always found that God will take care of it in His way, and in His time.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

The bible tells ministers not to do this..... the bible tells us if we see a brother in a fault to go to that brother and gently restore him

If my pastor (brother) does this i am told to go to him and gently restore such a one in the faith

Matthew 18:15
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Would say that these scripture do nat apply to a minister??

And I totally agree with this!

As a pastor, I would always welcome someone coming to me in a right spirit. The Bible does give clear direction on how to approach an elder with whom you have issue.

What I would not condone, and what God would not condone, is the group overthrow mentality, but I think we've already established that, and I believe we're all on the same page here.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by pelathais

LOL. Strawman argument, or a false dilemma. As I said before, the body needs to work with all of its members in sync.

Oh, and I agree with your post to FAL. I just don't think it fits the bill for the "the great Apostle Paul had some strong teaching about the saints not controlling the pastor" statement. The pastor serves the people, and all the people serve the Lord. There should be no "control" among those who serve and are being served in this world.

Agreed, but it's not a strawman, it's real life, my friend.

I've seen it, and I'm sure you have too.

The bottom line is, if there is mutual love and respect from pastor to saints and vice versa, this issue should never come up. If the pastor is following Christ, the saints are instructed to follow him.

If he veers from the course, the instruction to the saints to follow him is no longer valid, and they should prayerfully seek God to give them new direction.

[BroGibs]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Not to pick a fight with you my friend, but the pastor is the servant of those people. If he doesn't like what "he's being told to do" he can git out and find a more agreeable bunch to hang with.

These people have, no doubt, invested a lot of their finances, talent and their very lives into the respective churches. It's kind of hard when some preacher's squabble spills over and tells you that your kids can't practice Bible quizzing with their cousins in the next county. If it comes down to that, then the preachers need to move on. The saints are "the church," after all (Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 1 Corinthians 14:33; Ephesians 1:1; and etc.).

Who is this guy?? "Pastors is the servant of those people" WOW!!! Brother, I don't know who you are but you are in my prayers today!!!