Bill Clinton was guest Spkr.@ Apostolic ch. Sunday

[Aquila]

Revelation 22:2
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Our nation needs healing. I can feel the breeze of a healing rain coming.

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Aquila

We agree. But Christians are going to have to begin caring about more than abortion and gay marriage. Christians are going to have to become the stewards of society. Focusing on a more robust social mission. A vision that sees the national budget as a moral document, cares for the poor, the disenfranchized, the helpless, the environment, torture, human trafficking, all of our human rights, liberty of the individual, shared social responsibility of the nation etc. I see the Reformation coming in from what I see as "the Christian Center." Many books are being written as we speak about social issues and reforms that are broader in scope than the traditional paleoconservative two issue position. Books like A New Kind of Conservative, God's Politics, The Irresistable Revolution, etc. It appears to be a modernized re-awakening of the philosophy believed by Charles Sheldon and Frederick Denison Maurice.

We may be seeing a Spiritfilled Social Gospel beginning in America.

I agree 100% that the Church should be the one majoring in social action....as long as it is done Biblically. I do not believe in "christian" socialism in the form promoted by those referenced above. I do not believe the government should take the lead in this. This is where we probably differ. We must also regain and understanding of 'civil rights'.

BTW, do you espouse the philosophy of Ron Sider?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

I agree 100% that the Church should be the one majoring in social action....as long as it is done Biblically. I do not believe in "christian" socialism in the form promoted by those referenced above. I do not believe the government should take the lead in this. This is where we probably differ. We must also regain and understanding of 'civil rights'.

BTW, do you espouse the philosophy of Ron Sider?

I honestly didn’t know much about Ron Sider, I had to Google him. LOL

But from what little I read about him he and I may agree on quite a bit. I’d have to know more about him to truly say I would espouse his philosophy.

I did read some of the responses to Ron Sider written by David Chilton and found them without substance. David Chilton advocated “charity” for those in need. I believe charity has a major place in assisting those in need. While I agree with David Chilton on many things I think he’s wrong here. Those who need short term assistance should be able to turn to food banks and clothing closets to help make ends meet. Certainly those who loose their homes to fire should be able to rely on some form of charitable assistance. Charity should always be available for those with short term needs. But a single mother of three who barely earns above poverty level shouldn’t have to wait in the charity food bank line “hoping” they have enough food for her and her family every week until her children are grown. That’s called “food insecurity” and is a prelude to the state of hunger. I’ve worked with our local food bank and on occasion we’ve had to turn people away, mostly they were families and older people of retirement age. Some had already been turned away from other food banks. Some pleaded explaining they didn’t even have food for that evening. But we were out. We already see it to a large degree, left to depend on just charity; millions would find themselves going without food for extended periods of days or even weeks. Charity hospitals are nice but all too often there is quite a wait to receive assistance. While there are sterling examples of the valuable service these can deliver to some, many many more will never benefit from their benevolence and may actually die or suffer additional complications or loss of health waiting for “charity medical care”.

Some things are just too important to have those in need of them to depend entirely on charity. Charity allows the giver to choose to give or not to choose to give. In doing this the haves choose to give life or deny life. They choose to give sustenance or deny sustenance. That’s playing God. The food bank in our local downtown area had to turn a line of people away because those who have aren’t choosing to give what is necessary. Many have cabinets full of food, closets full of clothing. All of which will not be used. Maybe they sincerely intend to use those canned goods or to wear that coat again. Maybe they’re just absent minded. Maybe they intend to give to the local charity storehouse but they’re just so busy they don’t get around to it. Maybe some are just greedy feeling they got theirs…who cares about others. I believe that every excess is theft. If you have more coats than you need…those coats belong to those who have not. If you have more food than you need and you’re throwing loads of groceries away every week unused and unopened, that food belonged to those who have no food. If you have tens of thousands, millions, or even billions of dollars in savings merely sitting in an account earning you more dollars…while 18,000 fellow Americans die because they couldn’t afford health insurance or were denied coverage and couldn’t afford the needed care or procedure…all of your “savings” are theft. I’m not saying that its’ wrong to save. Surely one should save enough money to pay their bills and survive should hard times come…but excessive savings and horded excessive wealth in the shadow of such overwhelming need is theft. Thou shalt not steal. This is why God commanded landowners that they were not to harvest and sell the edges or dropped harvest. In addition every third year’s tithe was to be gathered into the storehouse and the funds were to be distributed to those in need. They were required to give by law. These were the civil laws of ancient Israel. We read how Israel disregarded the right of the poor and how the authorities and land owners turned away the poor and needy who had come to glean or request justice for being denied their right to glean. I’m sure the land owners felt that the Levitical Law was too intrusive, after all it was their crop to do with as they chose…right? Wrong. All things belong to God and God required by law that they care for the widows, orphans, needy, and strangers in their society. Interestingly even the Levite was to be dependent upon this public system, essentially a vow of poverty putting them into the same social disposition as the poor.

That was an agricultural society. But the principle is…the nation as an entire society was to assist the least of their people as a national policy. It wasn’t voluntary or optional…else God wouldn’t have listed this as a national sin when God pronounced judgment against the entire nation. In today’s monetary society the issue isn’t “gleanings” from a crop or a “poor tithe”….it’s funds in the national budget to assist those in the most desperate of circumstances. This biblical foundation is why Christians in Europe advocated democracy and the “poor tax” to assist the destitute. It was seen as a national moral imperative. I see only two areas where I believe the government is biblically justified in giving assistance…the issuance of food stamps and assistance with essential health services. Other areas of assistance like education, housing, unemployment insurance are optional programs, biblically speaking. Funding for food and medicine for the least of our people should always be provided. Clothing and housing is definitely an area where private or local entities can give assistance. I say that food and medicine are justified biblically because the gleanings were to provide sustenance. Medicine because denial of life saving care is tantamount to murder. For example there is the story of the young lady who needed a liver transplant. Her health insurer (she had insurance) denied coverage for a liver transplant they were next in line to receive. Her family had to fight the company legally arguing that it was a life saving measure meanwhile the available liver went to another individual who had coverage. Their health insurance company eventually reversed its position under legal pressure and agreed to cover the liver transplant. Sadly the young lady died before another liver became available. That was in the good ol’ USA. Morally speaking the insurance company is guilty of murder. And until we agree to make sure that doesn’t happen again…we are all accomplices. Every year there are an estimated 18,000 Americans who die because they were denied coverage or couldn’t afford life saving medical procedures. That is a moral sin along with abortion and wrongful executions. Being Pro-Life demands that we have a consistent life ethic. If life is sacred at all stages…protecting it at all stages is a moral imperative for our society.

Those are my convictions. That’s why I don’t see eye to eye with David Chilton. It’s easy to agree with Chilton…until you’re the one in desperate need of food or medical treatment and the charity runs dry.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

We must also regain and understanding of 'civil rights'.

Bro. Dave, how do you define “civil rights”?

[StMark]

Aquilla why don't you just write a book ??? lol

[Aquila]

How'd you know that I'm a writer? hehe

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by StMark

Did you hear that Bill Clinton was a guest at Bishop Noel Jones' church in Los Angeles Sunday ???

here's the link http://thedailyvoice.com/voice/2008/...at-la-blac.php



what is your opinion of this ???

This thread is misleading. NJ is not apostolic.

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Bro. Dave, how do you define “civil rights”?

Basically, without giving it too much thought, they fall into 3 basic categories.

1) Freedom rights- where individuals are free to act without interference by the state (Freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, etc)

2) Benefit rights- This implies that a person has the "right" to receive something from others. At the others expense.

3) Non-discrimination rights- Services cannot be denied someone based on a characteristic (gender, age, sexual orientation, race, etc)

There could be more but I think everything can basically fit into these categories.

[Aquila]

Some interesting things regarding governmental policies on poverty:

A Government Figure is Specified

Here are fourteen passages that actually name a real government ruler like a prince or king, or refer to government leaders metaphorically as shepherds or something similar.

Proverbs 28:3 – A ruler who oppresses the poor is a beating rain that leaves no food.

Proverbs 28:15-16 – Like a roaring lion or a charging bear is a wicked ruler over a poor people. A ruler who lacks understanding is a cruel oppressor; but one who hates unjust gain will enjoy a long life.

Proverbs 29:14 – If a king judges the poor with equity, his throne will be established forever.

Psalm 72:1-13 – Give the king your justice, O God, and your righteousness to a king’s son. May he judge your people with righteousness, and your poor with justice ... May he defend the cause of the poor of the people, give deliverance to the needy, and crush the oppressor ... For he delivers the needy when they call, the poor and those who have no helper. He has pity on the weak and the needy, and saves the lives of the needy.

Psalm 107:39-41 – When they are diminished and brought low through oppression, trouble, and sorrow, he pours contempt on princes and makes them wander in trackless wastes; but he raises up the needy out of distress.

Isaiah 1:10-17 – Hear the word of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom! Listen to the teaching of our God, you people of Gomorrah! What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the Lord; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams ... bringing offerings is futile; incense is an abomination to me ... I cannot endure solemn assemblies with iniquity. Your new moons and your appointed festivals my soul hates; they have become a burden to me, I am weary of bearing them. When you stretch out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood. Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, rescue the oppressed, defend the orphan, plead for the widow.

Isaiah 1:21-23 – How the faithful city has become a whore! She that was full of justice, righteousness lodged in her -- but now murderers! Your silver has become dross, your wine is mixed with water. Your princes are rebels and companions of thieves. Everyone loves a bribe and runs after gifts. They do not defend the orphan, and the widow’s cause does not come before them.

Isaiah 3:14-15 – The Lord enters into judgment with the elders and princes of his people; It is you who have devoured the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses. What do you mean by crushing my people, by grinding the face of the poor? says the Lord God of hosts.

Isaiah 14:32 – What will one answer the messengers of the nation? “The Lord has founded Zion, and the needy among his people will find refuge in her.”

Ezekiel 22:23-25 – The word of the Lord came to me: Mortal, say to it: You are a land that is not cleansed, not rained upon in the day of indignation. The princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey; they have devoured human lives; they have taken treasure and precious things; they have made many widows within it.

Daniel 4:27 – Therefore, O king, may my counsel be acceptable to you: atone for your sins with righteousness, and your iniquities with mercy to the oppressed, so that your prosperity may be prolonged.

Instructions for politicians

Here are four passages that demand actions that only a government can accomplish. This first one is perhaps the most persuasive and compelling.

Isaiah 10:1-3 – Ah, you who make iniquitous decrees, who write oppressive statutes, to turn aside the needy from justice and to rob the poor of my people of their right, that widows may be your spoil, and that you may make the orphans your prey! What will you do on the day of punishment, in the calamity that will come from far away?

Isaiah 32:6-8 – For fools speak folly, and their minds plot iniquity; to practice ungodliness, to utter error concerning the Lord, to leave the craving of the hungry unsatisfied, and to deprive the thirsty of drink. The villainies of the villains are evil; they devise wicked devices to ruin the poor with lying words, even when the plea of the needy is right. But those who are noble plan noble things, and by noble things they stand.

Jeremiah 8:19-22 – Hark, the cry of my poor people from far and wide in the land ... For the hurt of my poor people I am hurt, I mourn, and dismay has taken hold of me. Is there no balm in Gilead? Is there no physician there? Why then has the health of my poor people not been restored?

Amos 8:4, 7 – Hear this, you that trample on the needy, and bring to ruin the poor of the land ... The Lord has sworn by the pride of Jacob: Surely I will never forget any of their deeds.

And...a warning to the those who preach...

Micah 3:5-6 – Thus says the Lord concerning the prophets who lead my people astray, who cry “Peace” when they have something to eat, but declare war against those who put nothing into their mouths. Therefore it shall be night to you, without vision, and darkness to you, without revelation.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

Basically, without giving it too much thought, they fall into 3 basic categories.

1) Freedom rights- where individuals are free to act without interference by the state (Freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, etc)

Amen. The rights of sovereign individuals.

2) Benefit rights- This implies that a person has the "right" to receive something from others. At the others expense.

The Bible doesn't teach that this form of "justice" provided to the poor, widows, needy, orphans, and strangers was at the expense of "others" but rather "everyone" as a people and a nation. (see Holman Dictionary entry under "justice" for details). Interestingly God even threatened divine judgments against Israel for neglecting her responsibility as a nation and a people toward the poor of the land.

3) Non-discrimination rights- Services cannot be denied someone based on a characteristic (gender, age, sexual orientation, race, etc)

Do you believe that it is right to discriminate against individuals based on gender, age, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc.?

Certainly this is meant to be considered within the confines of reason. For example I would disagree with allowing a woman, homosexual, or Hindu officiating as a pastor of an Apostolic Church based on clear New Testament standards of church leadership. But if I were previledged to own a business I'd certainly not discriminate in my hiring practices. The most qualified would get the available position(s) regardless of their gender, age, sexual orientation, race, religion, etc.