Tithing…Is it a command?

[Sean]

I finally took time to catch up with the posts again. I have to say that what I have read from the anti-tithers is very telling. I see problems with rebellion, a desire to be in control over every aspect of their lives, and a true hatred for leadership. Oh, you may say that you do none of these things, but the spirit behind your posts tell a very different story. QUOTE UnTraditional



The reality is the "leadership" hates the non-tither. They actually send us to hell in their speech. If you dont think that is hatred, you dont know what hate is. Can you just imagine someone wanting you to burn in a superheated fire pit that is pitch black, feeling horrendous pain and fear. They , without ANY N.T. scriptural backing, send us to hell like the Popes of the dark ages. They want to make us pay dearly for not coughing up or tenth(plus offering) to their agenda.

I sat on a couch with a pastor, discussing this subject ever so gently with him, when he saw that I carefully corrected him about Heb. 7:5, he said to me with a DARK ANGRY LOOK IN HIS EYES...."Sean, if you dont pay your tithes you will split hell wide open". This man, that was very healthy and strong soon after developed cancer and I was standing at his graveside in less than 2 years later.

What do you think the Holy Ghost told me standing there at that time?...I will let you take a guess.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Sean

I finally took time to catch up with the posts again. I have to say that what I have read from the anti-tithers is very telling. I see problems with rebellion, a desire to be in control over every aspect of their lives, and a true hatred for leadership. Oh, you may say that you do none of these things, but the spirit behind your posts tell a very different story. QUOTE UnTraditional



The reality is the "leadership" hates the non-tither. They actually send us to hell in their speech. If you dont think that is hatred, you dont know what hate is. Can you just imagine someone wanting you to burn in a superheated fire pit that is pitch black, feeling horrendous pain and fear. They , without ANY N.T. scriptural backing, send us to hell like the Popes of the dark ages. They want to make us pay dearly for not coughing up or tenth(plus offering) to their agenda.

I sat on a couch with a pastor, discussing this subject ever so gently with him, when he saw that I carefully corrected him about Heb. 7:5, he said to me with a DARK ANGRY LOOK IN HIS EYES...."Sean, if you dont pay your tithes you will split hell wide open". This man, that was very healthy and strong soon after developed cancer and I was standing at his graveside in less than 2 years later.

What do you think the Holy Ghost told me standing there at that time?...I will let you take a guess.

I don't think any child of God hates anyone. We may not agree on everything, but that should make us work harder to stay in good relationship with one another. Friends there have been divisions in the church for as long as church has been. I don't think the answer is going around challenging the leadership of churches everywhere we go.

If I disbelieve something a local pastor teaches I probably wouldn't even confront him. It would have to be God. Or we walking in the First Baptist Church and openly challenging them on water Baptism or eternal security. Most probably do not. I hope you are not being boasting of someone dying of cancer. I doubt very much that he died of cancer because of a conversation that went array one night on the couch.

Not to mention, I have seen many debate things back and forth until someone gets angry. If I poke at someone enough I will eventually get an ugly response. I believe the adversary is the author of that not God. Even this thread if someone is offended they would be just shake the dust off their feet and move on.

I enjoy this thread and others like because I care what others think. In ways I think that both sides are right. In our daily walk though, we must seek unity and that doesn't mean we'll agree on every biblical subject.

[UnTraditional]

The Holy Ghost was telling you to repent, and you would not listen. The Holy Ghost was telling you that if you did not repent of your idolatry, you would indeed split Hell wide open. This will probably be my last posting on this matter... probably. But, listen to what I say. Leaders do not hate non-tithers, but try to warn them against their sins. Non-tithers do hate godly leadership when they refuse to tithe, because they are not against men, but God. When you hold something back from what God has commanded, you rob God. Non-tithers rob God.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

The Holy Ghost was telling you to repent, and you would not listen. The Holy Ghost was telling you that if you did not repent of your idolatry, you would indeed split Hell wide open. This will probably be my last posting on this matter... probably. But, listen to what I say. Leaders do not hate non-tithers, but try to warn them against their sins. Non-tithers do hate godly leadership when they refuse to tithe, because they are not against men, but God. When you hold something back from what God has commanded, you rob God. Non-tithers rob God.

You have yet to show a command to tithe money. Demonizing shows you are lacking.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

The Holy Ghost was telling you to repent, and you would not listen. The Holy Ghost was telling you that if you did not repent of your idolatry, you would indeed split Hell wide open. This will probably be my last posting on this matter... probably. But, listen to what I say. Leaders do not hate non-tithers, but try to warn them against their sins. Non-tithers do hate godly leadership when they refuse to tithe, because they are not against men, but God. When you hold something back from what God has commanded, you rob God. Non-tithers rob God.

Do you have anything to offer besides the oft repeated rhetoric? At least Samaritan is discussing and engaging. I thought you had quit with all the flip flop and were going to learn from your past experiences but instead you are making the same mistake again. What in a year or two are you going to again apologize for the way you treated others? Are you with Reckhart again? I think you can be a likeable enough guy but you're not qualified for ministry in a formal sense. Before you condemn everyone else to hell over non essentials why not just pull back on the reigns.

We're attempting to discuss SCRIPTURE do you have anything to add? So far you've brought nothing.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Do you have anything to offer besides the oft repeated rhetoric? At least Samaritan is discussing and engaging. I thought you had quit with all the flip flop and were going to learn from your past experiences but instead you are making the same mistake again. What in a year or two are you going to again apologize for the way you treated others? Are you with Reckhart again? I think you can be a likeable enough guy but you're not qualified for ministry in a formal sense. Before you condemn everyone else to hell over non essentials why not just pull back on the reigns.

We're attempting to discuss SCRIPTURE do you have anything to add? So far you've brought nothing.

Since I am not a flip floper on tithes and I have never had any Reckhart connection, and I have never mistreated or send anyone to hell for not believing in the tithe.

why does your crowd rejects my arguments for tithing.

This reminds me of Jesus saying
"We have piped for you and you have not danced
we have mourned for you and you have not lamented"

For UnTraditional came teaching the tithe in a harsh way and you have not accepted it
And FlamingZword came teaching the tithe in a soft way and you have not accepted it.

We can tell you about the tithe in happy ways and you refuse it.
we can tell you about the tithe in sad ways and you refuse it.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Since I am not a flip floper on tithes and I have never had any Reckhart connection, and I have never mistreated or send anyone to hell for not believing in the tithe.

why does your crowd rejects my arguments for tithing.

This reminds me of Jesus saying
"We have piped for you and you have not danced
we have mourned for you and you have not lamented"

For UnTraditional came teaching the tithe in a harsh way and you have not accepted it
And FlamingZword came teaching the tithe in a soft way and you have not accepted it.

We can tell you about the tithe in happy ways and you refuse it.
we can tell you about the tithe in sad ways and you refuse it.

FZ whether it doesn't matter if its taught harshly or softly, thundered from a pulpit or sung in a nursery rhyme, he argument has ZERO merit.

You do realize that none of the apostles taught tithing don't you? You do realize that the early church didn't teach tithing. And you do realize that while you reject the trinity and baptism in the titles because they are supposed to have originated at the Councils of Nicea (325) and Constantinople (381) both of which were ecumenical councils, that tithing wasn't even suggested until well after the Roman Catholic Church became institutionalized and had a huge problem supporting their over head and so at the Council of Tours (587) the "church" voted to use the tithing model from the Old Testament to support the hierarchy of the catholic church. Yet even then this was suggested, it was not a requirement. As Kenneth Scott-Lattourette writes in his The History of Christianity vol.1, it wasn't until well into the middle ages that tithing became universal in all the areas under Roman Catholic control (my memory is failing me, I can't remember if he said 11th,12th, or 13th century-but regardless, it was well after the first century). And even then when tithing began to be practiced it was much more agricultural at first and evolved into money as time went on.

Phillip Schaff wrote a History of the Christian Church, 8 volumes, over 7,000 pages. I have not read all of it, but I have read volume 1 & 2 (about 1900 pages) and there is nothing about the early church giving tithes.

David K Bernard wrote "A History of Christian Doctrine" in 3 Volumes. I have read all three volumes twice, and read volume 1 another time. Bernard mentions hardly anything about tithing and certainly makes no argument for tithing.

So am I saying Church History is equal to scripture? Not at all. My main point is scripture doesn't teach tithing as 1)money 2)for new covenant believers and 3)outside of the Promised Land and 4)in the absence of a Tabernacle/Temple and Levitical priesthood.

scripture doesn't teach tithing, AND in addition to that my secondary point is NEITHER does church history. Now ins't that a coincidence?

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

scripture doesn't teach tithing

Actually the scriptures have whole chapters teaching tithing.
perhaps you need to rephrase your phrase.

[UnTraditional]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Do you have anything to offer besides the oft repeated rhetoric? At least Samaritan is discussing and engaging. I thought you had quit with all the flip flop and were going to learn from your past experiences but instead you are making the same mistake again. What in a year or two are you going to again apologize for the way you treated others? Are you with Reckhart again? I think you can be a likeable enough guy but you're not qualified for ministry in a formal sense. Before you condemn everyone else to hell over non essentials why not just pull back on the reigns.

We're attempting to discuss SCRIPTURE do you have anything to add? So far you've brought nothing.

Do you love God enough to put Him first, even in your finances? Yes or no.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

Do you love God enough to put Him first, even in your finances? Yes or no.

Yes, I believe so (while at the same time being honest enough to say that while I desire to love the LORD my God as I ought to, I am not sure there has ever been a moment in my life I loved Him as I ought to nor as He deserves to be loved. So I am qualifying my YES answer with the admission of my constant failure, lest I should be presumptive and self righteous).

I would turn your question around by asking you, do you love God enough to put Him first, even in your finances? Yes or no?

Before you answer "YES" because you give 10%, bear in mind that we are only to love God, but to love our neighbor. I really don't care what you give to a church to maintain a decent building with carpet, air conditioning, padded pews, and nice sound equipment, and the monthly electric, water, and phone bills. We're not commanded to do any of those things (nor are we forbidden to if we desire, but lets not confuse giving to the church system giving to God, they are not one in the same).

How much have you given to help feed children around the world? To disaster victims? To missionaries? To help the families of martyrs or those persecuted for their fair (or do you even care about them since they probably haven't spoken in tongues-thus are unsaved anyway)?

Let me go further-how many people have you (not the church) helped in the last year to pay their electric bill? Their rent? Bought groceries for their families? Helped them fix their car? And so on.

You tell me, in the New Testament context of giving, is God more pleased for us to give money to a church that already has all its bills paid and $27,000 in the bank account while some people (and lets just say within the church right now, not outsiders) struggle to get by -OR- is God more pleased when we see a brother or sister in need and we help them financially by giving from our resources to help ease their burden EVEN IF that means we don't have anything to put in the plate on Sunday? Which one is giving to God? I would argue both. If someone pays $225 for a motel for a homeless man one week and doesn't put anything in the church offering for a couple weeks, is that man going to hell for robbing God? You tell me. If someone comes in off the street and doesn't have groceries, and asks for food, but the pastor slips out the side door and you're the only one who can help that person, so you take from your own families budget to help that person have some groceries to take home to their children living in a run down ghetto apartment, does that make God angry? You don't have to tell me who you've helped or not helped, just consider the question. You're condemning some of us to hell when you don't even know our priorities in life. You don't know our giving.

NO ONE that I know of is advocating greediness, hoarding, or denying that God loves a cheerful giver, OR even the principle that if you sow bountifully you will reap bountifully, but if you sow sparingly you will reap sparingly. I'm not even sure anyone is saying NOT to give to a church (I pastor a church, God forbid someone NOT give to the church), but if you equate all giving to God with a formal tithing system you are very confused.

At my church we do not even take up an offering. We have a box at the back of the sanctuary, and people can give as they desire and as they are able to. And I'll tell you this, if I find out that someone in my church passed up on helping someone in need to give their $50 check to the church that week I would be very upset with them. We can't all fix the world, but if God puts someone in our path during the week and we have the ability to help them, and we do not, then how can we say the love of Christ dwells in us?
If we have the opportunity to help someone but we withhold our "tithe" then do we not call it Corban?