Going back to the UPC

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Here in lies the flaws in you first statement. If God's will is for me to go a certain church and my famiy does not follow, but my first responsiblity is to be the leader and keep peace then I would be wrong on both accounts. The truth is there is no middle ground except for me to return.

That is not what I said. lol

If God will for you to go to a certain church, and your family refuses, you are not to make peace by doing what the family wants. That is not God's will for peace. You do not trade will of God for church for will of God for peace. God wills that we abandon peace if it will cost us His will for church.

We do not choose peace over God's will for choice.

I think God's word teaches priorities should be as follows:

1) Where to go in God's will for church.

2) Peace.

If number 2 cannot work with Number 1, then Number 1 STILL stays intact, and Number 2 suffers.

We never trade God's will for church with whatever makes peace in the family.

I know you are speaking generalities, but the truth it is not general for me. God command to a husband is to be the leader and keep the peace.

...But not at the expense of God's will for church.

I do not think the will of God is always in a certain place.

In divergent churches with divergent beliefs, either one is the will of God over the other, or neither are the will of God. In that case we need to find WHAT CHURCH is God's will.

It can be but I do not think it really breaks down to that here. I did at one time and that is part of why I left, but now I am not so sure.

If you are not sure, then you need to find out which church is God's will where your family should be. That may include time allowed for your family to be wherever until you sort through and learn God's will. But, whatever the case, you cannot stay away from God's will for your church due to other issues, even peace in your family.

If I kept going the way it was before going to seperate churches it would have probably caused a divorce and that is not a valid reason for a divorce.

If a man knows it is God's will to go to a certain church, and it leads to divorce, let divorce come! That is extreme, but we cannot put family peace before God's will. That is the only way to look at it. We cannot deny God's will for our wives, but must deny our wives for God's will. Jesus distinctly said that.

Church is THAT important. What we are taught about God and whom we make our pastor is THAT important. That is why we need to know what is the will of God for our family for a church. It is serious business.

If I can change the out come of a bad situation to a good situation then how is that against God's will, ya know?

We NEVER trade what we KNOW is God's will for Church for ANYTHING else. Not even peace.

If we forsake a known will of God in order to have peace with people, then we are wrong. Even for family! Why else do you think Jesus spoke of "hating" wife and children for His sake? If we are to ensure peace in our families at the cost of the will of God, then what did Jesus mean in those scriptures I quoted?

Martyrs could have had PEACE with their society by abandoning their faith. Would that be God's will? Families have cut off members of the family due to one finding truth and refusing to deny genuine truth. Should they have instead abandoned truth for family peace?

I know that God understands my heart. He will lead differently if He wants.

If you do not know where God wants you in church, then I agree. I am just saying you cannot trade God's will for family peace, when you know what His will is for church.

Put it this way... God's will for a church is GREATER and supersedes His will for peace in a family.

He will let my wife know if it is 'His will' for us to go.

NOT NECESSARILY.

If she is right with God, yes. And maybe still He will not tell her. That is the purpose of MAN being head of the family. God speaks to the head. And the head directs the body. Put it this way... .we re never to wait until the wife hears from God, if we have already heard from God as the man of the house. And a godly wife will agree with this.

I was told by a wise man once that if God calls a husband to something He will also call the wife and there will be confirmation.

Maybe and maybe not. I have no bible to say a man must wait for God to speak to his wife. Again, a godly wife will agree.

I do not believe God speaks to the wife about spiritual matters for the family. Man is the spiritual head of the wife in these cases. He may confirm it to her, but not necessarily.

Well in this situation, well over a year with no confirmation of her following me being the right choice. After 1 weekend of my choice to return I have confirmation. That is what speaks to me.

What do you think IS the confirmation? Peace? Peace may conflict with God's will at times. Really!

If you were wrong to go to the other church, then you were out of God;s will to begin with.

If you are not sure what God wants then all I said will not apply to you. But if you KNOW you heard from God, why be head of the house if you need confirmation from your wife? Anyway, this all depends upon what you KNOW as God's will and what you may not know.

[Margies3]

Originally Posted by Pragmatist

I'm curious about those that have made comments about disagreeing with the pastor what exactly is meant by disagreeing.

We do not follow standards and I plan on telling my daughter that we disagree with the pastor in that area. I don't think that's undermining his spiritual authority. What say ye?

I think if you don't believe in the standards preached by a pastor but can attend that church without being disagreeable - fine. If you disagree with him and feel like you need to challenge his authority at every turn and are argumentative and disagreeable about it, then maybe you really need to look somewhere else.

If I was going to go to a standards church and spend my time trying to convince others that they should ignore the pastor's teachings on standards, then I would be in the wrong. At that point, I should be looking for a different church.

Originally Posted by dizzyde

I have no problem with telling your daughter that you disagree with what ever points that you do (however if you were to disagree with most things, I have trouble understanding why you would go to the church), but the problem comes when a parent is belittling, critical or mocking of the Pastor. Anything that would undermine her respect for him or the ministry in general.

If you cannot show a respect for the Pastor of whatever assembly you are in, you are far better off to change to a church where you can have that respect. IMHO.

Exactly!

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Acutally they all love me for whatever reason. Even my old youth group is like stoked I am coming back though I am not going to be the youth leader. Even a person I was at odds with is SOOOOOO excited, that is the words that person used. I am not excluded from anything. Infact the UPC Pastor and I play golf with each other every couple of weeks and I wear shorts and he doesn't care. Only people that care seem to be other saints though most of them have no idea I wear shorts or go to movies.

This fact tells me more than anything else I've read on here today. It sounds to me like you already have a working relationship with this pastor and that you will be able to sit under his ministry without compromising your own beliefs. He sounds like a commendable pastor to me. And you sound like a husband who should be commended for putting the needs of his family above his own desires. Good for you

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Margies3

It sounds to me like you already have a working relationship with this pastor and that you will be able to sit under his ministry without compromising your own beliefs. He sounds like a commendable pastor to me. And you sound like a husband who should be commended for putting the needs of his family above his own desires. Good for you

But what about where does God will for a man and his family to go to church? Which church preaches more truth? THAT determines the will of God.

It's not a matter of one's own desires, but rather God's Will for church and God's truths. We cannot live by feelings of peace above truth.

JTULLOCK, why did you leave to begin with? For more truth? This is what you need to ask yourself. If one left originally for one's own desires and not for more truth, then one need one's own priorities corrected.

Just wondering.

If people do not care about truth and which church has more truth, then the whole idea of church is wrong anyway, IMHO. We've lost the whole correct concept of Church and God in those cases.

[dizzyde]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But what about where does God will for a man and his family to go to church? Which church preaches more truth? THAT determines the will of God.

It's not a matter of one's own desires, but rather God's Will for church and God's truths. We cannot live by feelings of peace above truth.

JTULLOCK, why did you leave to begin with? For more truth? This is what you need to ask yourself. If one left originally for one's own desires and not for more truth, then one need one's own priorities corrected.

Just wondering.

The fact is Bro. Blume, not every agrees with your apparent tenet that Gods will involves only one specific church for every person (outside of a church that is preaching Truth, and he has stated that he is respectful of the ministry and teachings of this church). I generally find most of what you say to be insightful, but I certainly disagree with this.

Yes, there are situations where God has a specific will for a person to be in a specific church, but not always. And, even if it was God's will for him to be at that church for that time, the will of God for your life can change. Maybe it was a period of growth in a specific area in his life that God wanted to achieve.

You are beginning to sound as if you have a little bit of an agenda on this issue.

[chaotic_resolve]

Good luck, JT. I'll keep you in my prayers. Lord knows you're going to need it. LoL

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by dizzyde

The fact is Bro. Blume, not every agrees with your apparent tenet that Gods will involves only one specific church for every person (outside of a church that is preaching Truth, and he has stated that he is respectful of the ministry and teachings of this church). I generally find most of what you say to be insightful, but I certainly disagree with this.

That is the whole point, D. The churches in question are so divergent as to preach totally different issues as truth, someone is wrong, or both. I cannot see any flaw in my reasoning here. I mean, the guy spoke of a charismatic church versus UPC. They are HUGELY different! I cannot see why anyone would not agree. The differences are so huge that one has more truth than the other, in very clear terms. If they were both UPC churches, then I would agree with you. But they are too different to say it does not matter.

Yes, there are situations where God has a specific will for a person to be in a specific church, but not always.

This is beyond that, D. Charismatic versus UPC. Think about it.

Originally Posted by JTullock

returning to the UPC for now and maybe forever. This will keep the consitancy in raising our child/children. As oppose to them choosing to go the charasmatic church

One considers oneness as necessary for salvation, and the other does not. One considers standards of dress to be salvational, the other does not. We're talking about salvational issues.

And, even if it was God's will for him to be at that church for that time, the will of God for your life can change. Maybe it was a period of growth in a specific area in his life that God wanted to achieve.

I am not seeing any concern about the will of God in regards to truth in the entire issue, though. That is odd, to me.

You are beginning to sound as if you have a little bit of an agenda on this issue.

Not at all, other than the idea that God does want us in a church that preaches more truth in every case. I already said I do not know either of the churches involved. There are good UPC churches and bad ones. But it sounds to me like the issue of truth is not as important in many minds as is family peace. Interesting thing.

Anyway, I am just speaking generally about churches with or without truth. THAT is always important. You even said, "(outside of a church that is preaching Truth."

I am SOLELY speaking about priorities in regards to truth versus peace in a family, despite what one might think I am concerned with.

Just my thoughts, anyway.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But what about where does God will for a man and his family to go to church? Which church preaches more truth? THAT determines the will of God.

It's not a matter of one's own desires, but rather God's Will for church and God's truths. We cannot live by feelings of peace above truth.

JTULLOCK, why did you leave to begin with? For more truth? This is what you need to ask yourself. If one left originally for one's own desires and not for more truth, then one need one's own priorities corrected.

Just wondering.

If people do not care about truth and which church has more truth, then the whole idea of church is wrong anyway, IMHO. We've lost the whole correct concept of Church and God in those cases.

There were many reasons I left. I wish I could tell you some of them, but they are very sensitive. But as time passes I see that some of what hurt was in defense of their loved ones. Though I do not agree with the actions I hope and would like to believe the motives were pure. You know over the past year or so I have choosen to be more merciful and gracious. It might mean swallowing pride or it might mean hurting people at times. But you can not make everyone happy. You just can't. I know that this particular church with their faults an failures has promise. I have seen too many healings and been used mightily there before and I just wonder if that is where I was suppose to stay or what. But I do know that just about everytime I go there God uses me to minister to someone on a personal level. It is strange, but it seems that I flow there really well. I do not want to sound all "upity' or anything. But last year I went to a service there and I honestly saw a cloud in there. The cloud had a word printed on it and the word was 'healing'. I told the pastor after church and no one else not even Amy my wife. Two weeks later was a women conference and a few ladies at this conference testified to the exact same vision. I have seen things there and felt things that are confirmation. It might make people mad or confused, but I unfortunately can not please everyone. One of my best friends is against me going back. It is tough, but I am sure this person understands my motives and that I have family needs. It might not make sense, but neither does God at times.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That is the whole point, D. The churches in question are so divergent as to preach totally different issues as truth, someone is wrong, or both. I cannot see any flaw in my reasoning here. I mean, the guy spoke of a charismatic church versus UPC. They are HUGELY different! I cannot see why anyone would not agree. The differences are so huge that one has more truth than the other, in very clear terms. If they were both UPC churches, then I would agree with you. But they are too different to say it does not matter.



This is beyond that, D. Charismatic versus UPC. Think about it.



One considers oneness as necessary for salvation, and the other does not. One considers standards of dress to be salvational, the other does not. We're talking about salvational issues.



I am not seeing any concern about the will of God in regards to truth in the entire issue, though. That is odd, to me.



Not at all, other than the idea that God does want us in a church that preaches more truth in every case. I already said I do not know either of the churches involved. There are good UPC churches and bad ones. But it sounds to me like the issue of truth is not as important in many minds as is family peace. Interesting thing.

Anyway, I am just speaking generally about churches with or without truth. THAT is always important. You even said, "(outside of a church that is preaching Truth."

I am SOLELY speaking about priorities in regards to truth versus peace in a family, despite what one might think I am concerned with.

Just my thoughts, anyway.

These churches are not that far apart. They both are Jesus name and such the main differences are the dress standards and the way they explain salvation is slightly different. UPC teaches you gotta do 1,2,and 3 for salvation and the other teaches salvation starts at repentance then one needs to continue on and be baptized and receive the HG. Not light years away.

Do you think that caring and taking of my familes needs are some how again what God wants? C'mon.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

There were many reasons I left. I wish I could tell you some of them, but they are very sensitive. But as time passes I see that some of what hurt was in defense of their loved ones. Though I do not agree with the actions I hope and would like to believe the motives were pure. You know over the past year or so I have choosen to be more merciful and gracious. It might mean swallowing pride or it might mean hurting people at times. But you can not make everyone happy. You just can't. I know that this particular church with their faults an failures has promise. I have seen too many healings and been used mightily there before and I just wonder if that is where I was suppose to stay or what. But I do know that just about everytime I go there God uses me to minister to someone on a personal level. It is strange, but it seems that I flow there really well. I do not want to sound all "upity' or anything. But last year I went to a service there and I honestly saw a cloud in there. The cloud had a word printed on it and the word was 'healing'. I told the pastor after church and no one else not even Amy my wife. Two weeks later was a women conference and a few ladies at this conference testified to the exact same vision. I have seen things there and felt things that are confirmation. It might make people mad or confused, but I unfortunately can not please everyone. One of my best friends is against me going back. It is tough, but I am sure this person understands my motives and that I have family needs. It might not make sense, but neither does God at times.

You sound level headed about it all in this most recent post.

I was only concerned that truth was being abandoned by someone somewhere in all of this, for sake of family peace. And that would be wrong. If both churches preach the same truth, with minor differences, then I see no concern.

But since you cannot divulge all your reasons for leaving, we cannot give proper recommendation. I would only recommend making search for more truth THE ONLY reason one should do anything over and above family peace.

[dizzyde]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That is the whole point, D. The churches in question are so divergent as to preach totally different issues as truth, someone is wrong, or both. I cannot see any flaw in my reasoning here. I mean, the guy spoke of a charismatic church versus UPC. They are HUGELY different! I cannot see why anyone would not agree. The differences are so huge that one has more truth than the other, in very clear terms. If they were both UPC churches, then I would agree with you. But they are too different to say it does not matter.



This is beyond that, D. Charismatic versus UPC. Think about it.



I am not seeing any concern about the will of God in regards to truth in the entire issue, though. That is odd, to me.



Not at all, other than the idea that God does want us in a church that preaches more truth in every case. I already said I do not know either of the churches involved. There are good UPC churches and bad ones. But it sounds to me like the issue of truth is not as important in many minds as is family peace. Quite the day we're living in, I'd say. lol

I thought I had understood him to say the church that he had been attending was a former UPC church and also that it was still a OP church. If that is not the case, I agree with you to a certain extent, which is why I had indicated earlier on, that if this change did not challenge his principals, it was not wrong.

I, for one, do not feel that the standards issue should be something that would be too big of an issue to make peace over. Whether or not a person will lost or saved if they don't follow them, I don't believe anyone will be lost for following them, unless they have done it in a way the violates and perverts the Word of God (i.e. purity of intent).