Is the UPC a Den of Incest (Growth Within)?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by vrblackwell

It is a fact that the UPC has not grown within the USA very much over the last 10 to 20 years. However, there are churches that cannot be thrown into that category. The church i am attending in Springfield has people receiving the HG and being baptized every week. Wednesday night 12 were baptized in Jesus name. I have only been there since January and have been impressed.

I am sure there are many more that are growing. But the org as a whole has not been growing. That is why a new church growth campaign has been launched recently called global impact.

The fact is, the churches that are willing to change and step out of the box will see souls saved. I personally believe it starts by trying to stop growing churches and personal kingdoms and by trying instead to grow people.

For so long we have tried to bring people in and convert them to a culture instead of going out and leading them to a savior. JMHO

I agree with that "humble opinion." We really need tp focus more on the "Savior" and less on "the culture" (that is, "OUR culture").

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Joie, MOW can set the record straight, but I think there was a play on words involved - not physical sexual incest.

Indeed.
But I still think it was an unfortunate (and unnecessarily inflammatory) choice of words.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

I understand how this fits into your current understanding but as I said it does not seem to make sense in my real-life connections. Most conservative women I know are married to husbands that are at least a bit more liberal.

The men that I know who are manipulating and subjugating are mostly NON-Christian.

Sexism is still a societal problem ...

but those who idolize Norman Rockwell paintings of what life and women should be ... are theologizing a doctrine that is centered around women being the trophies of God's holiness while little effort is expended on males living right or looking the part.

And the question is why ??? Where is this inordinate focus rooted?

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

The idea of systemic sexism is pervasive even in our society ... CBO if your eyes are open ... We are all victims.

My mother left the Apostolic Assembly 2 years after her conversion because it was even more blatantly/overtly sexist.

The roots of the ultracon holiness movement is rooted in the deep South ... and one would be remissed if one cannot see that often women are subjugated in many of these churches to great extents ... and one way to manipulate and keep women in their place is to make them the trophies of dress holiness.

As one who has been in or around southern holiness for nearly five decades I really cannot see this.

Women, as a culture, have made much more dramatic changes in their fashion than have men over the last 50-60 years. In an attempt to maintain the status quo of a 1950 Norman Rockwell looking family yes the onus is therefore greater on the female.

So yes in that sense it is harder on the women. But I have not seen any "conspiracy to manipulate" or "keep women in their place" by use of "standards."

[SDG]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

As one who has been in or around southern holiness for nearly five decades I really cannot see this.

Women, as a culture, have made much more dramatic changes in their fashion than have men over the last 50-60 years. In an attempt to maintain the status quo of a 1950 Norman Rockwell looking family yes the onus is therefore greater on the female.

So yes in that sense it is harder on the women. But I have not seen any "conspiracy to manipulate" or "keep women in their place" by use of "standards."

Who called it a conspiracy?

There are some things that manifest themselves from our subconscience and/or world view.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

The idea of systemic sexism is pervasive even in our society ... CBO if your eyes are open ... We are all victims.

My mother left the Apostolic Assembly 2 years after her conversion because it was even more blatantly/overtly sexist.

The roots of the ultracon holiness movement is rooted in the deep South ... and one would be remissed if one cannot see that often women are subjugated in many of these churches to great extents ... and one way to manipulate and keep women in their place is to make them the trophies of dress holiness.

In the past I have actually been made to feel uncomfortable by some pastors who wanted to "show off" the ladies in his church. The preacher would get so wound up and "tickled" by all the "holiness" of the women that it made me cringe. So much saccharine and corn syrup.

And though the women were dressed "modestly," they were still being objectified in a manner consistent with a swimsuit competition.

Oh... and I can see Jekyll's point in saying that the UPC is "a den of incest" but I think that he is being overly harsh and deliberately using loaded words to try and create a scandal here. Chill, Jekyll! Not all holiness preaching is bad!

[SDG]

Originally Posted by pelathais

In the past I have actually been made to feel uncomfortable by some pastors who wanted to "show off" the ladies in his church. The preacher would get so wound up and "tickled" by all the "holiness" of the women that it made me cringe. So much saccharine and corn syrup.

And though the women were dressed "modestly," they were still be objectified in a manner consistent with a swimsuit competition.

A twisted form of pageantry that has even become manifest at General Conferences

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by pelathais

In the past I have actually been made to feel uncomfortable by some pastors who wanted to "show off" the ladies in his church. The preacher would get so wound up and "tickled" by all the "holiness" of the women that it made me cringe. So much saccharine and corn syrup.

And though the women were dressed "modestly," they were still be objectified in a manner consistent with a swimsuit competition.

Now that is something to digest.

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Who called it a conspiracy?

There are some things that manifest themselves from our subconscience and/or world view.

I agree whole heartedly the burden placed on women to keep with the ideal of "holiness" most often presented as standards is greater that than on the men.

But I would still respectfully maintain that is because women's fashions, and what is "acceptable" to the norms of society have changed much more radically for women than for men in the same period of time.

That is the source of conflict more than any attempt to suppress the women.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

Perhaps this is what MOW meant, an inbreeding of spiritual DNA leading to retarded growth.

Without "new blood" there is no fresh perspective.

The challenge is perhaps in having an infusion of new blood without losing sight of the original vision of the house.

And to that unfortunately I am not sure there is a pat one-size-fits-all answer.

It is a constant balancing act to infuse new without betraying what should be immutable.

Exactly what I meant! Thank Griff!!!