Jesus forsaken?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Theophil

This was more than the cry of a righteous Sufferer affirming His faith that God would cause Him to triumph (contrast Ps. 22:1 with Ps. 22:28). Nor did Jesus merely feel abandoned. Instead, Jesus’ cry combined (a) abandonment by God the Father in a judicial not relational sense, and (b) a genuine affirmation of Jesus’ relationship to God. Bearing the curse of sin and God’s judgment on sin (cf. Deut. 21:22-23; 2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 3:13) He experienced the unfathomable horror of separation from God, who cannot look on sin (cf. Hab. 1:13). This answers Jesus’ question, “Why?” Dying for sinners (Mark 10:45; Rom. 5:8; 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18), He experienced separation from God.
Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983-c1985). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (2:189). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

What do you say to this?

My first response would be - "yeah, a bunch of dispy apologists!"

But seriously, as I said earlier - though it seems you posted before I had completed an update - where we begin with this is with the passage that Jesus was referring to. The fact that he was quoting scripture is a powerful indication of the thoughts and feelings he wished to express.

And, the Walvoord and Zuck (I have several of their books) quote does expound upon the idea of Christ being separated as a sin offering.

But the fact that He cried is interesting. That experience of being "forsaken" was traumatizing for Him. It seems to have been felt as one more lash across His back, so to speak. I think it reveals the depths of the emotional suffering He endured. Consider Hebrews 12:3, and the "contradiction of sinners."

Jesus was righteous and went about doing good - yet He was accused of doing evil, Matthew 9:34, Matthew 12:24, and many others. This is just one glaring "contradiction."

He did good but was accused of evil. Then He was charged with blasphemy and tried. God manifest in the flesh was charged with blasphemy - a crime against God. Another "contradiction."

And then when this holy, sinless and righteous man was crucified, He became sin for us, the real sinners in the drama. 2 Corinthians 5:21.

We can objectively tie these things (and many other points) up in nice theological packages and rejoice with thankfulness; but He had to endure it one excruciating step of injustice at a time. I think the cry of Mark 15:34 gives us a window on a very broad panorama.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Theophil

Mark 15:34 (KJV)
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

I would be interested in opinions as to what extent Jesus was forsaken by God at His crucifixion.

He wasn't forsaken. God does not forsake the righteous. He was empathizing with David whom Jesus was quoting. He FELT forsaken just as David felt forsaken

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

He wasn't forsaken. God does not forsake the righteous. He was empathizing with David whom Jesus was quoting. He FELT forsaken just as David felt forsaken

Yet, wouldn't you say that there was an element of "forsakenness" when He "became sin for us..."? I think that's at least part of what Theophil is getting at.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Yet, wouldn't you say that there was an element of "forsakenness" when He "became sin for us..."? I think that's at least part of what Theophil is getting at.

Call me a heretic but I think that means "he became a sin offering for us"

[Cindy]

There is a difference in feeling forsaken, and being forsaken.

[Theophil]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Yet, wouldn't you say that there was an element of "forsakenness" when He "became sin for us..."? I think that's at least part of what Theophil is getting at.

I'm not really sure of exactly what was taking place when Jesus cried out. I am wanting to hear different viewpoints and opinions. I threw out the quote from Walvoord to suggest the differing ideas on this subject. Thank you for your responses thus far and please continue.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Ron

He, (his humanity) felt forsaken, he wasn't forsaken.

That's my understanding. Jesus suffered the feeling of being totally abandoned by God as He hung on that cross. Hebrews 9:14 says that "Christ...through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God..." I do not believe as some Oneness folks that God withdrew from Jesus on the cross and He suffered alone as a man.

I remember hearing one Oneness preacher on the radio talking about how God entered Jesus after His water baptism and then left Him before His death on the cross and then re-entered Him when He rose from the dead.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Call me a heretic but I think that means "he became a sin offering for us"

and as the oil and meal were offered together (not separated at some time in the process) deity and humanity were offered together.

The penalty for sin is separation from God. When Jesus became sin He felt that penalty of separation from God.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Sam

and as the oil and meal were offered together (not separated at some time in the process) deity and humanity were offered together.

The penalty for sin is separation from God. When Jesus became sin He felt that penalty of separation from God.

Are you thinking of the meal offering as in Leviticus 2? The meal offering for sin (Leviticus 5) seems to have stipulated that no oil was to be mixed.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sam

and as the oil and meal were offered together (not separated at some time in the process) deity and humanity were offered together.

The penalty for sin is separation from God. When Jesus became sin He felt that penalty of separation from God.

How do you "become sin"? Sin is an abstract. You either commit sin or you do not.