Deltaguitar-Salvation Requires More Than Faith!

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by staysharp

Since you sincerely believe it takes a human work to save us; then one could argue we are co-laborers in our own salvation. Also, since all this obedience is required, why don't we start with the greatest commands...loving God and your neighbor as yourself. Why don't we continue in treating others as you would want to be treated.

You see if you're going to argue we can save ourselves, then you're going to have to be perfect to be saved. Your righteousness is going to have to exceed that of the pharisees.

I know of very few Christians, who truly love their neighbor as they love themselves, and I know very few Christians who treat others as they would want to be treated. This is the fundamentals of our faith and on these commands hinge all others.

The flaw in your argument is that you're trying to characterize obedience as a "human work".

Obedience to God's word is not a human work.

And obeying God's command doesnt not make one a "co-laborer in their own salvation."

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

The flaw in your argument is that you're trying to characterize obedience as a "human work".

Obedience to God's word is not a human work.

And obeying God's command doesnt not make one a "co-laborer in their own salvation."

haha so let me make sure what you are saying...obedience as a result of our faith is not our works? So, giving a cup of water in Christs' name is not something I do by my own choice?

TR, I respect you, but we have a serious disconnect. If we can't obey, then how can we be saved? How can we respond, unless we hear? You make absolutely no sense to me.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by staysharp

haha so let me make sure what you are saying...obedience as a result of our faith is not our works? So, giving a cup of water in Christs' name is not something I do by my own choice?

TR, I respect you, but we have a serious disconnect. If we can't obey, then how can we be saved? How can we respond, unless we hear? You make absolutely no sense to me.

If you are defining works as something you can do on your own, then doesn't that make faith or believing in Him a work? And also Repentance?

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

If you are defining works as something you can do on your own, then doesn't that make faith or believing in Him a work? And also Repentance?

Thank you prax.
If one were to use that rationale consistently, then one might say we dont need to repent, since that's a "human work", and that would make us "co-laborers" in our own salvation.

Referring to things such as repentance and baptism as "human works" just incorrectly plays into the "salvation by works" argument. That's not what the NT is referring to when it says we are saved by faith, not by works.

(Salvation is a gift. But it does require a human response on our part. But to characterize that as "works" improperly puts our acts of obedience into the category of "works" which is NOT what Paul was referring to when he said we are saved by grace through faith, "not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8-9).)

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Thank you prax.
If one were to use that rationale consistently, then one might say we dont need to repent, since that's a "human work", and that would make us "co-laborers" in our own salvation.

Referring to things such as repentance and baptism as "human works" just incorrectly plays into the "salvation by works" argument. That's not what the NT is referring to when it says we are saved by faith, not by works.

So, with your rational, would communion be a human work? If baptism is a work of the spirit in us, then so would be communion and then of course all the "other" sacramental Christians would be saved.

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

If you are defining works as something you can do on your own, then doesn't that make faith or believing in Him a work? And also Repentance?

You cannot come to God without faith. Faith in the Son of God who gave himself for us. You cannot have faith unless the Gospel is given to you through your hearing.

Repentance is an act of God's mercy to draw us to Christ. We cannot repent unless God deals with our hearts. But, the actual act of repenting as in Psalms 51 is our choice. Many choose not to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

If you are defining works as something you can do on your own, then doesn't that make faith or believing in Him a work? And also Repentance?

There's a rub. "Evangelicals" often follow Calvin's lead and cite the doctrine of Irresistible Grace.

The idea is that God extends grace to "the elect" and we (and hopefully you!) are simply powerless to resist, even in our sinful state; such is the power of God's grace.

Thus, even faith and believing become something that God has done on our behalf. Salvation then, is "All of Grace" as Spurgeon preached, and not of ourselves (Ephesians 2:8-10).

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by staysharp

You cannot come to God without faith.

That doesn't address what I said, however it must be pointed out nobody here is sayig you can come to God without faith

Faith in the Son of God who gave himself for us. You cannot have faith unless the Gospel is given to you through your hearing.

Same as above

Repentance is an act of God's mercy to draw us to Christ. We cannot repent unless God deals with our hearts. But, the actual act of repenting as in Psalms 51 is our choice. Many choose not to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit.

But can you be saved and NOT repent? Are we commanded to believe in Christ? Is it our faith that saves us? Again this goes to the issue of what the definition of works is. If it is merely "anythiung we can do ourselves" then faith is a work and so is repentance

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by staysharp

So, with your rational, would communion be a human work? If baptism is a work of the spirit in us, then so would be communion and then of course all the "other" sacramental Christians would be saved.

Invalid comparison.

Communion has never been spoken of in scripture as being something elemental in he salvation process.
Baptism, on the other hand, IS spoken of as such in the scriptures.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

There's a rub. "Evangelicals" often follow Calvin's lead and cite the doctrine of Irresistible Grace.

The idea is that God extends grace to "the elect" and we (and hopefully you!) are simply powerless to resist, even in our sinful state; such is the power of God's grace.

Thus, even faith and believing become something that God has done on our behalf. Salvation then, is "All of Grace" as Spurgeon preached, and not of ourselves (Ephesians 2:8-10).

And all choice is made void.