Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Ah, I see. Do you feel bad for Pharaoh?

I am not sure.

I am realizing that my train of thought here basically means that Pharoah was created for a life of disobedience and pain, without him being able to effect any of his life's decisions at all.


This could lead someone to question the character of God.

God is beyond reproach-- just and true in everything He does and doesn't do.



But I still have a problem with stating that I am saved because I did _______.

The Grace of God covers me and my life throughout the whole process.
If it wasn't for His Grace, there would be no process in the first place.

So I am not saved because of works that I have done.
I am saved by faith, through His Grace.

Because of my faith, I obeyed the form of Gospel delivered to me (repentance and baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ). Yes I did these things, but only after I believed.

Abraham was called righteous because he believed. His faith caused him to move.

His situation foreshadows our own salvation today.

We believe and are made the righteousness of God because we believe.
As the righteousness of God, we do. We obey. We love.

Then HE fills us with His Spirit.

He sets His tongues of fire on those who seek after His Spirit.

We can and must repent.

We can and must be baptized.

God is the only who can fill us with His Spirit, with the evidence of speaking in tongues-- so it is nothing that we can do there EXCEPT wait on God to keep His Promise as we seek His Promise.

And in all of this, God commands belief for salvation.
Our salvation is sealed at belief.

He confirms our salvation that has already taken place by allowing signs to follow those who believe. The signs are not salvation.


No more than circumcision alone makes a Jew a Jew.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by staysharp

So what you are saying is that if you follow these three steps even without faith in Christ you are saved? I don't think so. The Gospel is not about what we do for Him, it's about what He did for us!

NOT a person that I know believes this your statement is absurd.

FAITH is what operates repentance,baptism, infilling.

[JDN1972]

WOW!!! I have not followed the whole disscusion in total but I think I understand the original question. FIRST, Repentance is not a one time thing or a step, it is the reaction of rebuke. When peter preached the first sermon in Acts 2 what he said pricked them in their hearts. This was conviction brought about by the realization of their sin nature. When you realize that you are a sinner and you want to make it right you have to turn away from the sin nature, (REPENT). Please understand that repentance must happen daily in order to keep turning from the sin nature. That is what Paul meant when he said I die daily. SECOND, Water baptism is not a step as much as it is an act of faith, and yes the mode does matter. When you are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remmision of sins, it's not the water that removes the sin it' s the name. Just as if I take a shower or bath, it's not the water that cleans me up it's the soap that removes the dirt and stink. THIRD, Recieving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Know this that the Holy Ghost is the spirit of God and without it would be impossible to have a intimate relationship with God. 1 Corinthians 12:3 (King James Version)

3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Now about tongues, it is a gift from God and is used in the NT as evidence of recieving the Holy Ghost. But no where did the aposotles ever pray for some one to talk in tongues they prayed for them to recieve the Holy Ghost. I think the church has forgotten that the Holy Ghost comes first and then the gift of tongues. But also keep in mind it is evidence of the indwelling. Think about it this way, when you go to buy shoes do you have to ask for the tongues seperatly or do they come with the shoes? I hope this answered somebodys question. It is not about steps, it's about belief and faith. I believe I can drive a car and have faith that it will deliver me to my destination. But unless I (step one) get in the car, (step two) put the keys in the switch and turn it on, (step three) put the car in gear and drive to my destination, All the faith and verbal confession still leaves me sitting at home!

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by JDN1972

WOW!!! I have not followed the whole disscusion in total but I think I understand the original question. FIRST, Repentance is not a one time thing or a step, it is the reaction of rebuke. When peter preached the first sermon in Acts 2 what he said pricked them in their hearts. This was conviction brought about by the realization of their sin nature. When you realize that you are a sinner and you want to make it right you have to turn away from the sin nature, (REPENT). Please understand that repentance must happen daily in order to keep turning from the sin nature. That is what Paul meant when he said I die daily.

Ok, let's talk about this. Where do you get the ideology that when Peter preached they turned from sin? The crowd he was preaching at were Judaizers who did not consider themselves sinners. Rather, they served God religiously according to the law. Peter's words (if you read in context) are dealing with Messiah coming and when Messiah comes, according to old covenant scriptures, they are to turn to him. This is what Peter is preaching. Don't get confused with a modern pentecostal altar service and think they had one in Acts 2. Peter told them "Messiah" has now come. His name is "Yeshua" and you need to follow him because He is the one God has sent.

SECOND, Water baptism is not a step as much as it is an act of faith, and yes the mode does matter. When you are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remmision of sins, it's not the water that removes the sin it' s the name. Just as if I take a shower or bath, it's not the water that cleans me up it's the soap that removes the dirt and stink.

You are 100 percent off base here. It is NOT someone calling a name over you that removes sin, it is the sacrificial atoning blood of CHRIST that removes sin. Baptism is what we do for Him because of what He has done for us. You have absolutely no biblical foundation to teach that a third person calling the name JESUS over you takes your sins away.

John the baptizer said..."behold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world."

THIRD, Recieving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Know this that the Holy Ghost is the spirit of God and without it would be impossible to have a intimate relationship with God. 1 Corinthians 12:3 (King James Version)

3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

You have completely taken this verse out of context. Faith is what brings us into relationship with God, not tongues.

Now about tongues, it is a gift from God and is used in the NT as evidence of recieving the Holy Ghost... But also keep in mind it is evidence of the indwelling. Think about it this way, when you go to buy shoes do you have to ask for the tongues seperatly or do they come with the shoes? I hope this answered somebodys question..., All the faith and verbal confession still leaves me sitting at home!

No where scripturally will you find tongues as evidence of the Holy Spirit indwelling. The fruit of the Spirit is the evidence of indwelling. Gal 5

Tongues are given for a sign. 1 Cor 12-14

A sign points you to the reality of what is. Tongues are not the Holy Spirit, but rather a sign that it does exist.

Friend, for your souls sake, find a church that serves love and actually teaches the bible. God bless.

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

NOT a person that I know believes this your statement is absurd.

FAITH is what operates repentance,baptism, infilling.

Faith in what Elder? Baptism? self-worthlessness? tongues?

Herein lies the conflict. One must place their faith solely in Christ and His atoning work. You cannot believe baptism saves you, one must believe Christ is the savior.

One cannot believe tongues is the Holy Spirit, one must believe the Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit.

See how easy it is to get off base? One must teach the truth sir.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by JDN1972

WOW!!! I have not followed the whole disscusion in total but I think I understand the original question. FIRST, Repentance is not a one time thing or a step, it is the reaction of rebuke. When peter preached the first sermon in Acts 2 what he said pricked them in their hearts. This was conviction brought about by the realization of their sin nature. When you realize that you are a sinner and you want to make it right you have to turn away from the sin nature, (REPENT). Please understand that repentance must happen daily in order to keep turning from the sin nature. That is what Paul meant when he said I die daily. SECOND, Water baptism is not a step as much as it is an act of faith, and yes the mode does matter. When you are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remmision of sins, it's not the water that removes the sin it' s the name. Just as if I take a shower or bath, it's not the water that cleans me up it's the soap that removes the dirt and stink. THIRD, Recieving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Know this that the Holy Ghost is the spirit of God and without it would be impossible to have a intimate relationship with God. 1 Corinthians 12:3 (King James Version)

3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Now about tongues, it is a gift from God and is used in the NT as evidence of recieving the Holy Ghost. But no where did the aposotles ever pray for some one to talk in tongues they prayed for them to recieve the Holy Ghost. I think the church has forgotten that the Holy Ghost comes first and then the gift of tongues. But also keep in mind it is evidence of the indwelling. Think about it this way, when you go to buy shoes do you have to ask for the tongues seperatly or do they come with the shoes? I hope this answered somebodys question. It is not about steps, it's about belief and faith. I believe I can drive a car and have faith that it will deliver me to my destination. But unless I (step one) get in the car, (step two) put the keys in the switch and turn it on, (step three) put the car in gear and drive to my destination, All the faith and verbal confession still leaves me sitting at home!

True.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by staysharp

Ok, let's talk about this. Where do you get the ideology that when Peter preached they turned from sin? The crowd he was preaching at were Judaizers who did not consider themselves sinners. Rather, they served God religiously according to the law. Peter's words (if you read in context) are dealing with Messiah coming and when Messiah comes, according to old covenant scriptures, they are to turn to him. This is what Peter is preaching. Don't get confused with a modern pentecostal altar service and think they had one in Acts 2. Peter told them "Messiah" has now come. His name is "Yeshua" and you need to follow him because He is the one God has sent.



You are 100 percent off base here. It is NOT someone calling a name over you that removes sin, it is the sacrificial atoning blood of CHRIST that removes sin. Baptism is what we do for Him because of what He has done for us. You have absolutely no biblical foundation to teach that a third person calling the name JESUS over you takes your sins away.

John the baptizer said..."behold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world."



You have completely taken this verse out of context. Faith is what brings us into relationship with God, not tongues.



No where scripturally will you find tongues as evidence of the Holy Spirit indwelling. The fruit of the Spirit is the evidence of indwelling. Gal 5

Tongues are given for a sign. 1 Cor 12-14

A sign points you to the reality of what is. Tongues are not the Holy Spirit, but rather a sign that it does exist.

Friend, for your souls sake, find a church that serves love and actually teaches the bible. God bless.

Argue with Acts 22:16 it is inspired you are NOT!

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by staysharp

Faith in what Elder? Baptism? self-worthlessness? tongues?

Herein lies the conflict. One must place their faith solely in Christ and His atoning work. You cannot believe baptism saves you, one must believe Christ is the savior.

One cannot believe tongues is the Holy Spirit, one must believe the Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit.

See how easy it is to get off base? One must teach the truth sir.

Faith in the shed blood and Calvary's once for all sacrifice led me to repent, that SAME faith caused my sins to be remitted by His shed blood when I was baptized having his Name invoked over me and recieved the promise of His Spirit that was made available through Calvary by the SAME faith and that SAME faith is how I walk with HIM each day.

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Faith in the shed blood and Calvary's once for all sacrifice led me to repent, that SAME faith caused my sins to be remitted by His shed blood when I was baptized having his Name invoked over me and recieved the promise of His Spirit that was made available through Calvary by the SAME faith and that SAME faith is how I walk with HIM each day.

So, let me be clear...what you are saying is that if a person is not "baptized' in water having a second person invoke Jesus' name over him, his sins are not remitted?

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Argue with Acts 22:16 it is inspired you are NOT!

Ok let's see what it says...
Acts 22:16 (New International Version)

16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'

be baptized and...wash away your sins calling upon his name. clearly calling on his name is the salvific action, not baptism.