Would Jesus And The Apostles Recognize The Church

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Yes. In fact I do. Do you?

How and when do you keep it?

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

How and when do you keep it?

I'm not Aquila but...

Roughly sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. For no other reason than that it works well. I'm extremely laid back about it though.

How? It's just a time of rest. I spend the time thinking about God, vs school and work and money and everything that needs to be done. I often do Bible study during the Sabbath. It's a very blessed downtime from everything that needs doing.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

You don't have to convince me..I know what sin is and isn't.

I was just sharing my understanding.

I stand by the fact that the entire law was summed up by Jesus as I stated above.

I'll demonstrate why I believe this isn't sound logic. Jesus said that you are to love God with all that you are and your neighbor as yourself. Without referencing a single one of the Ten Commandments please tell me how that's done...

Most can't deliver when I ask that. My point is that Jesus didn't "sum up" the Law in what he said, he clarified the Law and it's over all aim with what he said. He didn't erase or replace anything. He simply clarified.

In addition, what Jesus said didn't even address the "entire law" because almost two thirds of the Law is ceremonial or relating to the civil code of ancient Israel. This leads us to your next statement...

I stand by the fact that there is more to the Torah than the 10 commandments.

That depends on how you define Torah. You see most of us Gentiles think of the Torah as the Five Books of Moses. And academically, that's an acceptable answer. However, to a Jew the Torah is the Law of God. Everything in the Law of Moses has the purpose of sustaining one of these Ten Commandments. You can take every law in the Torah and you can find that each one of them can be categorized under one of the Ten Commandments. The Law of Moses is an unfolding of the Law of God to the nation of Israel. The Law of Moses is no longer necessary because... we are not the nation of Israel. We are a spiritual Israel who is called to obey the Law of God without the carnal ordinances of Moses. So the Ten Commandments still stand.

And I stand by the fact that the entire law was fulfilled.

Yes, the entire Law, including the Ten Commandments, were fulfilled in Christ. Not so that we who are saved no longer have to obey the Ten Commandments... but so that he could purchase salvation for those of us who were lost. Now we are saved to live unto the Lord... by obeying the Law of God. Not ceremonial or civil codes of Israel and all that junk. But we are to live in harmony with the very fabric of God's morality and Holiness. And this is expressed in the Law of God.

And I agree with Neubill that sin is transgression of the Torah.

Again, that depends on how you define Torah. Some would say that if you eat a ham sandwich you've sinned. Well... that was a law of ceremonial cleanness in the Law of Moses designed to keep Israel from partaking in pagan feasts which featured swine's flesh. It's purpose was to uphold the Commandment, "You shall have no other gods before Me." Now Christ has fulfilled the ceremonial law that was being used by the Pharisees to bludgeon the people... but the Law of God, "You shall have no other gods before Me.", still stands.

And I agree with you that the 10 commandments fit rather neatly into the 2 greatest commandments.

I thought that was pretty cool too.

[rava61]

This is something else that I have given a lot of thought to: I don't believe Jesus would fit into our 'church system' - much of what we do in out church services has nothing to do with Him.

Ok, if Jesus came to our church He would be wearing a robe, sandals, have a beard, and have a fro or slightly longer hair than many of our leaders approve of; so, what do you think would happen. Do you think He would be invited to the platform as is the custom in many of our churches?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

How and when do you keep it?

The Commandment is,

Exodus 20:8-11
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

On the seventh day (Saturdays) I don't work. I don't do anything professional, work on the yard, take out the trash, work on the car, or anything like that. In fact, I make it holy (separate) by making it a time for me and God to commune. I find it best to get away from all the Sabbath breakers by going fishing. I normally stay until sundown to ensure that I've fulfilled the Law. My wife doesn't seem to understand any of this of course, but I'm still praying for her.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by rava61

This is something else that I have given a lot of thought to: I don't believe Jesus would fit into our 'church system' - much of what we do in out church services has nothing to do with Him.

Ok, if Jesus came to our church He would be wearing a robe, sandals, have a beard, and have a fro or slightly longer hair than many of our leaders approve of; so, what do you think would happen. Do you think He would be invited to the platform as is the custom in many of our churches?

Nope.

[rava61]

Actually the Sabbath begins at 6:30 pm on Friday and ends 6:30 pm on Saturday: hope you're not shortchanging yourself or God.

[rava61]

Oh....and the fishing, o my, that would be considered 'labor' so is not permissible; and, don't forget that on the Sabbath one is not allowed to go any farther that one can walk in a day.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by rava61

Actually the Sabbath begins at 6:30 pm on Friday and ends 6:30 pm on Saturday: hope you're not shortchanging yourself or God.

You're right! I need to head out Friday night and not come back until Saturday night. Oh boy, wait until my wife hears how sanctified I'm going to be!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by rava61

Oh....and the fishing, o my, that would be considered 'labor' so is not permissible; and, don't forget that on the Sabbath one is not allowed to go any farther that one can walk in a day.

Fishing isn't labor... fishing is rest.

Ahhh.... Oh, lookie there... I gotta bite!

And I get around the walking clause entirely because I don't walk on the Sabbath at all. If you see what appears to be me walking to my fishing hole on Saturdays, be advised: I'm not walking - I'm ambling. And I've been known to use roller skates to get back and forth from my chair and the fridge if I stay home.