The Removal of Romans 14:22

[giftofgrace]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

I think a person's motives comes to play in issues like this.

Exactly

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

That one is easy. The Bible addresses it. It says not to become drunken. So, if you're drinking enough to become drunk, you're drinking too much. The Bible addresses moderation with alcohol in several places.

The Bible does say wine will gladden the hearts of men.

14He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;

15And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.

I don't drink alcohol, and I think it's something that should be handled very carefully.... but the Bible definitely does not forbid it.



.

And thus we see how everything that should be "in moderation" becomes an absolute sin in the minds of many.

And then one half step later, becomes a matter of salvation as a codified rule, or another step on the checklist.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

And thus we see how everything that should be "in moderation" becomes an absolute sin in the minds of many.

And then one half step later, becomes a matter of salvation as a codified rule, or another step on the checklist.

Very good assessment of the road to error where man controls things and not the Lord.

[giftofgrace]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

That one is easy. The Bible addresses it. It says not to become drunken. So, if you're drinking enough to become drunk, you're drinking too much. The Bible addresses moderation with alcohol in several places.

The Bible does say wine will gladden the hearts of men.

14He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;

15And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.

I don't drink alcohol, and I think it's something that should be handled very carefully.... but the Bible definitely does not forbid it.



.

What I meant was how are we to judge ourselves on how much we are able to handle dealing with something like alcohol. It can so easily become sin. Alot of people say that they will just have a little of something, do it once, then end up going all the way or getting hooked. That's why MOTIVES are very important to examine. If its for a medical reason, or something of the like, then I believe God sees that. Yet if someone says its for something else yet are really dependent on it and it is a stumbling block in their Christian walk, they should examine that as well. I know God knows the heart, we don't.. I am not trying to condemn an honest soul, just expressing my personal opinion, and the need to self-examine. I just pray that us as the body of Christ do not fall into any type of deception and we would give ourselves wholly to Christ.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by giftofgrace

What I meant was how are we to judge ourselves on how much we are able to handle dealing with something like alcohol. It can so easily become sin. Alot of people say that they will just have a little of something, do it once, then end up going all the way or getting hooked. That's why MOTIVES are very important to examine. If its for a medical reason, or something of the like, then I believe God sees that. Yet if someone says its for something else yet are really dependent on it and it is a stumbling block in their Christian walk, they should examine that as well. I know God knows the heart, we don't.. I am not trying to condemn an honest soul, just expressing my personal opinion, and the need to self-examine. I just pray that us as the body of Christ do not fall into any type of deception and we would give ourselves wholly to Christ.

Amen. Personally, I will not touch alcohol from now until He comes! And I hate the taste of it. lol

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Very good assessment of the road to error where man controls things and not the Lord.

This is just my observation, but I think when the Holiness standards were set down the country was already in a more moderate state of mind and, therefore, the scriptures in Deut 22:5 and I Timothy 2:9 were taken at face value and not studied out.

When things began to change and the assessment was the "flappers, WWII and Rosie the Riveter" reared their head and were changing the countries values, men wanted to curb this by defining themselves on dress.

Back when this was laid out, it was accepted because the core of the church was still living a more moderate lifestyle in dress. Even us as Catholics wore dresses all the time.


Even for myself, I never thought there was more to Deut 22:5 than simply a gender distinction of clothing. I didn't look at that scripture closely until just the last four years. I didn't study out I Cor 11 until that time either.

What I focused on more was trying to learn to not lose my temper (lol), how and why does God keep loving us, keeping a consistent prayer life, and the basic tenets of Christian service and faith. The other scriptures I referenced, never occurred to me at that time.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by giftofgrace

What I meant was how are we to judge ourselves on how much we are able to handle dealing with something like alcohol. It can so easily become sin. Alot of people say that they will just have a little of something, do it once, then end up going all the way or getting hooked. That's why MOTIVES are very important to examine.

This is true of many things. One reason I choose not to drink is because there are numerous alcoholics in my family. Whether or not this is a genetic thing, I don't know, but since so many in my family have not been able to handle alcohol, I've chosen to not even test myself. It's my personal decision. But I believe that a Christian does have liberty in this area, biblically.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

And thus we see how everything that should be "in moderation" becomes an absolute sin in the minds of many.

And then one half step later, becomes a matter of salvation as a codified rule, or another step on the checklist.

True. Wasn't it during the Prohibition period that alcohol went into the "sin" category?

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

True. Wasn't it during the Prohibition period that alcohol went into the "sin" category?

I actually assumed it was well before then.

And I know this thread isn't about alcohol but it does make a good example since it IS considered a black & white sin in the minds of many/most -and yet Jesus MADE the stuff!

And when a phrase like "gladden the heart" is used in scripture (and not in a disparanging way) doesn't that indicate that there is at least a little "tipsiness"?

I think a huge problem (with alcohol) today as opposed to then (biblical times) is how available it is! I get the impression that wine was NOT easy to come by, at least the good stuff that you would actually want to drink, where as today you can pick it up for 4.99 a bottle!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

This is just my observation, but I think when the Holiness standards were set down the country was already in a more moderate state of mind and, therefore, the scriptures in Deut 22:5 and I Timothy 2:9 were taken at face value and not studied out.

When things began to change and the assessment was the "flappers, WWII and Rosie the Riveter" reared their head and were changing the countries values, men wanted to curb this by defining themselves on dress.

Back when this was laid out, it was accepted because the core of the church was still living a more moderate lifestyle in dress. Even us as Catholics wore dresses all the time.


Even for myself, I never thought there was more to Deut 22:5 than simply a gender distinction of clothing. I didn't look at that scripture closely until just the last four years. I didn't study out I Cor 11 until that time either.

What I focused on more was trying to learn to not lose my temper (lol), how and why does God keep loving us, keeping a consistent prayer life, and the basic tenets of Christian service and faith. The other scriptures I referenced, never occurred to me at that time.

Good words. I think many manners of enforcing standards are due to lack of awareness of Spirit leading, and teaching folks about it.

If people walk after the Spirit, they will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Period.