Why do I have to speak in tongues?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Thought I might post a weekly (or so) essay, Bible study, story, joke, or whatever, for your enjoyment. This week's topic:


Doubting Thomas


Thomas got a bum rap. It so happened that he wasn't present when Jesus first appeared to the rest of the disciples. We all know the story: when they told Thomas that Jesus was alive, he didn't believe them. But what about the others? Even Mary had to see and hear Jesus before she knew He had risen. When she told the disciples, they didn't believe her! Mark 16 says Jesus appeared to two others, who also told them about it, and they still didn't believe. It wasn't until Jesus showed up in person that they believed.

It was exactly the same for Thomas, except he had the bad luck of being somewhat chided by Jesus for not believing what he heard. "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." So he gets the dubious honor of being known as "Doubting Thomas". But why not add the tag to all of the disciples? Why not Doubting Peter, Doubting John, etc.? I wonder if they squirmed a little, when Jesus was picking on poor Thomas, realizing that they were guilty of the same thing.

Of course, why Thomas was singled out and given his embarrassing nickname isn't the important thing. We shouldn't miss the bigger point being made: that we should always believe whatever people tell us, even if there is no evidence to see or substance to touch.

Today, we are all in the same boat with Thomas. Or, rather, the boat he was in until he actually saw Jesus, and from that standpoint, Thomas was very lucky indeed. We don't have the luxury of doubting until we see Him. Our only option is to be in that "blessed" group of folks who just believe what we're told. We have to have more faith than any of the disciples did.

Poor, Jesus. He was not true nor correct after all. He gave Thomas a bum-rap.

But saying "we must always believe what people tell us" is a false conclusion here. More correctly, we must always believe what JESUS SAID. Not what people say. And Jesus repeated it over and over again that he would rise again the third day.

But thankfully Thomas repented. Unfortunately his story is used, as in this post I quote, to encourage people not to repent.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Poor, Jesus. He was not true nor correct after all.

What do you mean? That I think he was wrong? Well, that may be, but it is beside the point. Do you have a more specific comment or correction for my essay? Are there any mistakes in it? Is it not true that we are expected to have more faith (the blessed kind, without seeing) than any of the disciples (before they saw him alive)?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

What do you mean? That I think he was wrong? Well, that may be, but it is beside the point. Do you have a more specific comment or correction for my essay? Are there any mistakes in it? Is it not true that we are expected to have more faith (the blessed kind, without seeing) than any of the disciples (before they saw him alive)?

Yes, there are mistakes. I edited my post to add the thought that it is not a matter of believing what people say, but what Jesus said. Jesus told them over and over that He would rise again the third day.

And of necessity we must indeed have more faith than the disciples in the one regard of not having seen Jesus actually risen. So, although they were extremely blessed with their status with Him as disciples who literally saw Him, God sorta makes up for that in our day with us since we are to be blessed more in that one regard than they, for we never literally saw Him alive after death.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Poor, Jesus. He was not true nor correct after all. He gave Thomas a bum-rap.

But saying "we must always believe what people tell us" is a false conclusion here. More correctly, we must always believe what JESUS SAID. Not what people say. And Jesus repeated it over and over again that he would rise again the third day,

I would say even more correctly, we must (apparently) believe everything that people wrote about Jesus, what they said he did and said. Everything in the chosen canonical books, that is. (And then, we must believe that the ones who chose the canon got it right.)

Hey, everything you guys say about taking things on faith could very well be correct. What you have faith in may very well be worthy of that faith. (I have my reasons for thinking it's not, but hey, that's just me.) But: is there any religion in the world for which the very same thing could not be said? Why don't you also have faith in Islam, or Hinduism, or Mormonism?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

I would say even more correctly, we must (apparently) believe everything that people wrote about Jesus, what they said he did and said. Everything in the chosen canonical books, that is. (And then, we must believe that the ones who chose the canon got it right.)

Hey, everything you guys say about taking things on faith could very well be correct. What you have faith in may very well be worthy of that faith. (I have my reasons for thinking it's not, but hey, that's just me.) But: is there any religion in the world for which the very same thing could not be said? Why don't you also have faith in Islam, or Hinduism, or Mormonism?

We went through a similar chat with each other before. And I will say again what I said then. I took the words of the Bible and saw what it said about requirements for seeing the miraculous. He said to not test Him, but rather take His Word as truth and believe in it to see the results he claimed we would see. And it happened with me over and over again.

For example, and I wrote of this before and I am not sure if you were involved in that chat or not, but it seems you were. Anyway, we were talking about God answering prayer. And I related one of the many times I saw a miraculous answer for prayer.

I was seeking God as to what step to take next in my ministry seeing I knew my then-present situation was ending. So, having several opportunities and open doors for me to take across the continent, I was bewildered as to which one to take. A minister friend of mine felt to tell me to agree with him in prayer for a supernatural sign from the Lord as to which road I should take. We did it.

Involved in all of this story was my first book I wrote that was printed and shipped to me in January of '07. I advertised it on my website and by the time May of the same year came around I sold a whopping 22 copies over the internet. lol. Not a huge amount, but I would later find it was God's hand in more ways than I then realized.

In May I opted to check out one of my doors of opportunity and set out on a flight from Winnipeg, Canada, to Ontario, California. I changed flights in St. Paul, and then my third plane connected with me in Phoenix. I walked to the automated seat ticket dispenser and obtained my seat number. 22B.

I boarded the plane and found my seat and waited for everyone else to find theirs and be on our way. While sitting there, I saw a man walking down the aisle holding my back up in the air, looking for his seat! I looked twice and sure enough it was my book! Only 22 sold! And of all places, way down in Phoenix, Arizona, this man was looking for his seat with my book raised high in his hand.

I stood up and told him he had my book. He thought I meant he stole it from me in the airport. I said no, I wrote it.

And HIS SEAT NUMBER WAS 22A! Directly beside me.

He was a minister from North Carolina visiting L.A. to preach there three nights, and indicated he was hoping to get the book before the flight so he could read it on the trip. I actually recalled signing the book for him, since I did that with my sales, and he showed me the signature where he appreciated the gesture.

he could have had the book in his suitcase. He could have simply not brought it. But with me getting my ticket for the seat number when I did, and he doing the same when he did, and the fact that only 22 were sold in the world (and someone added we were in seat row 22!), my mind was blown!

The passenger in seat 22C apologized for overhearing us and asked me to clarify whether or not I wrote the book, sold only 22 of them, and this man bought it only to sit directly beside me after each of us came from locations in the continent that were simply and plainly diverse from one another. After being blown away at my confirmation, I asked him to take the following picture.



So I took that as the answer to prayer as to which route to take in my journey in ministry.

Now, the odds of that happening are astronomical. But seeing I followed the scriptures and did not TEST God to work but actually believed he would, it was proof God answers prayers and that His Word is true.

That AMONG MANY MANY similar experiences, is PART OF why I have faith in Christianity.

In fact, it would take more anti-faith (for lack of a better term) to believe this was COINCIDENCE than not! But I am sure people worked on their unbelief enough that they can actually believe that was coincidence and not God answering prayer at all.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

We went through a similar chat with each other before. And I will say again what I said then. I took the words of the Bible and saw what it said about requirements for seeing the miraculous. He said to not test Him, but rather take His Word as truth and believe in it to see the results he claimed we would see. And it happened with me over and over again.

For example, and I wrote of this before and I am not sure if you were involved in that chat or not, but it seems you were. Anyway, we were talking about God answering prayer. And I related one of the many times I saw a miraculous answer for prayer.

I was seeking God as to what step to take next in my ministry seeing I knew my then-present situation was ending. So, having several opportunities and open doors for me to take across the continent, I was bewildered as to which one to take. A minister friend of mine felt to tell me to agree with him in prayer for a supernatural sign from the Lord as to which road I should take. We did it.

Involved in all of this story was my first book I wrote that was printed and shipped to me in January of '07. I advertised it on my website and by the time May of the same year came around I sold a whopping 22 copies over the internet. lol. Not a huge amount, but I would later find it was God's hand in more ways than I then realized.

In May I opted to check out one of my doors of opportunity and set out on a flight from Winnipeg, Canada, to Ontario, California. I changed flights in St. Paul, and then my third plane connected with me in Phoenix. I walked to the automated seat ticket dispenser and obtained my seat number. 22B.

I boarded the plane and found my seat and waited for everyone else to find theirs and be on our way. While sitting there, I saw a man walking down the aisle holding my back up in the air, looking for his seat! I looked twice and sure enough it was my book! Only 22 sold! And of all places, way down in Phoenix, Arizona, this man was looking for his seat with my book raised high in his hand.

I stood up and told him he had my book. He thought I meant he stole it from me in the airport. I said no, I wrote it.

And HIS SEAT NUMBER WAS 22A! Directly beside me.

He was a minister from North Carolina visiting L.A. to preach there three nights, and indicated he was hoping to get the book before the flight so he could read it on the trip. I actually recalled signing the book for him, since I did that with my sales, and he showed me the signature where he appreciated the gesture.

he could have had the book in his suitcase. He could have simply not brought it. But with me getting my ticket for the seat number when I did, and he doing the same when he did, and the fact that only 22 were sold in the world (and someone added we were in seat row 22!), my mind was blown!

The passenger in seat 22C apologized for overhearing us and asked me to clarify whether or not I wrote the book, sold only 22 of them, and this man bought it only to sit directly beside me after each of us came from locations in the continent that were simply and plainly diverse from one another. After being blown away at my confirmation, I asked him to take the following picture.



So I took that as the answer to prayer as to which route to take in my journey in ministry.

Now, the odds of that happening are astronomical. But seeing I followed the scriptures and did not TEST God to work but actually believed he would, it was proof God answers prayers and that His Word is true.

That AMONG MANY MANY similar experiences, is PART OF why I have faith in Christianity.

In fact, it would take more anti-faith (for lack of a better term) to believe this was COINCIDENCE than not! But I am sure people worked on their unbelief enough that they can actually believe that was coincidence and not God answering prayer at all.

Great story Actually it doesn't take much "faith" to believe it was coincidence... We as humans have short memories when it comes to most things. We remember the coincidental things easier. You are right that the chances of this one things happening are not very high, but you are wrong in drawing the conclusion that something supernatural must have happened (it may very well have been God's doing but there is a reasonable explanation without attributing it to God) Consider this: how many times in the average person's life do extreme coincidences happen? I would say most people experience quite a few of these moments of coincidence in the course of their lives. Now, we cannot say what those coincidences are going to be, but we can say that some are going to happen in everyone's life a few times. The chances of not one extremely coincidental thing happening is very possibly much smaller than the chance of you sitting beside that guy on the airplane and seeing he had one of your 22 books... So attributing that event to coincidence doesn't take alot of faith

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Great story Actually it doesn't take much "faith" to believe it was coincidence... We as humans have short memories when it comes to most things. We remember the coincidental things easier. You are right that the chances of this one things happening are not very high, but you are wrong in drawing the conclusion that something supernatural must have happened (it may very well have been God's doing but there is a reasonable explanation without attributing it to God) Consider this: how many times in the average person's life do extreme coincidences happen? I would say most people experience quite a few of these moments of coincidence in the course of their lives. Now, we cannot say what those coincidences are going to be, but we can say that some are going to happen in everyone's life a few times. The chances of not one extremely coincidental thing happening is very possibly much smaller than the chance of you sitting beside that guy on the airplane and seeing he had one of your 22 books... So attributing that event to coincidence doesn't take alot of faith

It is not hard to believe it is coincidence when "anti-faith" is a common thing in a person's life.

Some folks simply do not want to believe the Bible is true. They have doubted and surmised and doubted to such an extent that when it is easier to believe it was coincidence than God, such a deep pit is VERY hard to escape from. Flesh tends towards the doubting route enough as it is. But to push oneself that way through unbelieving thoughts is another thing.

Every time I prayed in this kind of faith, God did the same sort of thing. That entire event compounded with the fact that each time I prayed the same way for other things that were immediately followed with similar events, makes it beyond coincidence.

If this was God there would be many who would never attribute it to Him. Meanwhile, I followed all the requirements the bible said for prayer to see answers. So when the same set of circumstances occurs directly after prayer towards that very end, that some might see as coincidence, it is fa more than coincidence.

I was pastoring my first pastorate, and the congregation was small in a small town in Newfoundland, Canada. The church could not fully support me. I went and lived on unemployment insurance from my previous secular job history, and sought for extra work in town. Could not get work. It was a mining town and the mine was shut down, seeing people leave the town by droves. But I knew God sent me.

One day a family member also in ministry called me and asked how things were going. I said I was living on Unemployment Insurance (UI), and it would run out one day, but I was in the will of God and that was all that mattered.

Months passed and I received my last cheque. I prayed for a miracle of finances so I could stay. I felt God's word come alive in me saying, from Matt 21, if I would pray doubting nothing I would have my miracle. So all that weekend I fought doubt and said that if I never believed God before I was going to believe Him then. As the bills raced through my imagination, and my two young boys and wife, and thoughts of food, etc., I fought doubt and fear as Jesus said, and believed. It was a good fight of faith!

I was so stirred about faith for this that I preached our Sunday night message about it. I told the people the finances ran out and they knew they could not support me. But GOD WAS GOING TO ANSWER. Their eyes were like saucers.

I said that behind this pulpit I was going to later tell them what happened, for I had that much faith that He woudl supply the need though I knew not how at the moment.

I went to bed that night and the phone rang at 4:40am. It was my family member who was evangelizing in California 4.5 hours time zone difference to the west. He had not spoken to me since the months before when he asked about us. Without saying anything to him on the phone except, Hello, he told me to sit up and tank Jesus for meeting my needs.

He explained he was in Nate Wilson's church and preached all that same Sunday there. After morning service, he said he felt the Lord tell him to give $1000 to Bro Wilson's radio ministry. He made up his mind to obey. That night service had him preach on the will of God, saying, "I called my nephew in Newfoundland, Canada, several months ago and asked how he was doing in his first pastorate. He said he was living on UI and it would run out one day, but he is happy as a lark in the will of God. Speaking of the will of God, Bro Wilson, God spoke to me to give your radio ministry $1000 and I am obeying God tonight."

I yet had said nothing to him about anything that transpired in our service that weekend. He explained to me that a spirit of giving took over the place and people started donating second vehicles for the funds t6o go to the radio ministry, etc etc. One may stood and said he had $100 for "your nephew in Newfoundland". Another said he had $300, and a third said he would match the UI cheque I was getting with a cheque every week!

I was bawling like a baby by this time.

I told him he did not know what happened. I got my last Cheque this Friday gone by, and God spoke to me to pray doubting nothing, I fought doubt all weekend. And I told him what I preached about and shared with the Church in the same corresponding Sunday night service in our church compared to what just happened where he was. He said he never heard of that before.

I wound up getting $8,000 through the months from that brother in California.

Answers to the prayer did not end. A minister halfway across the continent sent me $1000 out of the blue in the mail shortly after, not having known the situation. Another minister came over and asked about how we were doing, and by that time my light bill ascended to a height I could not pay. (Electricity is high in Newfoundland). He told me he could not promise anything but would have me over that next summer to preach in his church and take up an offering for me to have money to renovate the church basement for an apartment. We went and they took up more money than they ever took up for any other speaker, including missionaries -- $4,141.00 in one night.

I obtained over $13,000.00 from that one prayer where I followed the Lord's directives as to how to pray and receive. I could share many other similar experiences.

Now, believe what you will, but all of these things happened when I saw what the bible said is required for God to answer my prayers, and these things happened. And if one does not believe still, somehow one does not want to believe, and if God really did these things, then there is nothing, in my opinion, that can prove to them God is real and His word is correct.

Coincidence is one thing. But I never had any such degree of coincidences occur in my life outside the times I distinctly prayed as the bible directed, and wound up seeing these sort of things happen.

After seeing the same thing occur ONLY AFTER I PRAYED, shows us a law - a result that occurs when certain particular circumstances are in place. God's Word is true and He answers prayer.

Doubt about these things being of God will tremendously hinder a person from being able to pray without doubt and see God answer. And such an attitude of doubt will ultimately see one lost and not able to believe God for the sort of things in their lives that He actually did do in mine, if I am right and indeed He did as I claim.

It's your souls. Do with them as you please.

But, Frog, every time I saw God answer, I had gotten as far away from your reasoning as I could beforehand.

[Timmy]

Mike, would you say that since it works for you, it is therefore correct?

What if Mormons say their faith works for them? Are they right, too? Same for Muslims, Hindus, agnostics?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Mike, would you say that since it works for you, it is therefore correct?

Since I did what the Word say to do, and it worked, then it is correct. I'm sold on it.

What if Mormons say their faith works for them? Are they right, too? Same for Muslims, Hindus, agnostics?

They need to be sure as they can be, and leave their souls in their confidence. I can only speak for myself. It is not my responsibility nor ability to be able to ascertain anyone else's state with God. "What shall this man do?" Peter asked Jesus, and Jesus told him it's none of Peter's business. I am just to share what I know of God and do that part in the Kingdom.

Why not WANT to believe?

I can tell you really worked on your unbelief.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It is not hard to believe it is coincidence when "anti-faith" is a common thing in a person's life.

Some folks simply do not want to believe the Bible is true. They have doubted and surmised and doubted to such an extent that when it is easier to believe it was coincidence than God, such a deep pit is VERY hard to escape from. Flesh tends towards the doubting route enough as it is. But to push oneself that way through unbelieving thoughts is another thing.

Every time I prayed in this kind of faith, God did the same sort of thing. That entire event compounded with the fact that each time I prayed the same way for other things that were immediately followed with similar events, makes it beyond coincidence.

If this was God there would be many who would never attribute it to Him. Meanwhile, I followed all the requirements the bible said for prayer to see answers. So when the same set of circumstances occurs directly after prayer towards that very end, that some might see as coincidence, it is fa more than coincidence.

I was pastoring my first pastorate, and the congregation was small in a small town in Newfoundland, Canada. The church could not fully support me. I went and lived on unemployment insurance from my previous secular job history, and sought for extra work in town. Could not get work. It was a mining town and the mine was shut down, seeing people leave the town by droves. But I knew God sent me.

One day a family member also in ministry called me and asked how things were going. I said I was living on Unemployment Insurance (UI), and it would run out one day, but I was in the will of God and that was all that mattered.

Months passed and I received my last cheque. I prayed for a miracle of finances so I could stay. I felt God's word come alive in me saying, from Matt 21, if I would pray doubting nothing I would have my miracle. So all that weekend I fought doubt and said that if I never believed God before I was going to believe Him then. As the bills raced through my imagination, and my two young boys and wife, and thoughts of food, etc., I fought doubt and fear as Jesus said, and believed. It was a good fight of faith!

I was so stirred about faith for this that I preached our Sunday night message about it. I told the people the finances ran out and they knew they could not support me. But GOD WAS GOING TO ANSWER. Their eyes were like saucers.

I said that behind this pulpit I was going to later tell them what happened, for I had that much faith that He woudl supply the need though I knew not how at the moment.

I went to bed that night and the phone rang at 4:40am. It was my family member who was evangelizing in California 4.5 hours time zone difference to the west. He had not spoken to me since the months before when he asked about us. Without saying anything to him on the phone except, Hello, he told me to sit up and tank Jesus for meeting my needs.

He explained he was in Nate Wilson's church and preached all that same Sunday there. After morning service, he said he felt the Lord tell him to give $1000 to Bro Wilson's radio ministry. He made up his mind to obey. That night service had him preach on the will of God, saying, "I called my nephew in Newfoundland, Canada, several months ago and asked how he was doing in his first pastorate. He said he was living on UI and it would run out one day, but he is happy as a lark in the will of God. Speaking of the will of God, Bro Wilson, God spoke to me to give your radio ministry $1000 and I am obeying God tonight."

I yet had said nothing to him about anything that transpired in our service that weekend. He explained to me that a spirit of giving took over the place and people started donating second vehicles for the funds t6o go to the radio ministry, etc etc. One may stood and said he had $100 for "your nephew in Newfoundland". Another said he had $300, and a third said he would match the UI cheque I was getting with a cheque every week!

I was bawling like a baby by this time.

I told him he did not know what happened. I got my last Cheque this Friday gone by, and God spoke to me to pray doubting nothing, I fought doubt all weekend. And I told him what I preached about and shared with the Church in the same corresponding Sunday night service in our church compared to what just happened where he was. He said he never heard of that before.

I wound up getting $8,000 through the months from that brother in California.

Answers to the prayer did not end. A minister halfway across the continent sent me $1000 out of the blue in the mail shortly after, not having known the situation. Another minister came over and asked about how we were doing, and by that time my light bill ascended to a height I could not pay. (Electricity is high in Newfoundland). He told me he could not promise anything but would have me over that next summer to preach in his church and take up an offering for me to have money to renovate the church basement for an apartment. We went and they took up more money than they ever took up for any other speaker, including missionaries -- $4,141.00 in one night.

I obtained over $13,000.00 from that one prayer where I followed the Lord's directives as to how to pray and receive. I could share many other similar experiences.

Now, believe what you will, but all of these things happened when I saw what the bible said is required for God to answer my prayers, and these things happened. And if one does not believe still, somehow one does not want to believe, and if God really did these things, then there is nothing, in my opinion, that can prove to them God is real and His word is correct.

Coincidence is one thing. But I never had any such degree of coincidences occur in my life outside the times I distinctly prayed as the bible directed, and wound up seeing these sort of things happen.

After seeing the same thing occur ONLY AFTER I PRAYED, shows us a law - a result that occurs when certain particular circumstances are in place. God's Word is true and He answers prayer.

Doubt about these things being of God will tremendously hinder a person from being able to pray without doubt and see God answer. And such an attitude of doubt will ultimately see one lost and not able to believe God for the sort of things in their lives that He actually did do in mine, if I am right and indeed He did as I claim.

It's your souls. Do with them as you please.

But, Frog, every time I saw God answer, I had gotten as far away from your reasoning as I could beforehand.

You missed the whole point of my previous post. Instead it's more of the, "your deluding yourself by believing this is coincidence stuff". I gave a very good explanation for how things could reasonably be coincidence. I never said it was or wasn't, only that no one can know. Now as far as things happening when you pray... Isn't it possible that at least one of those times something happened was only coincidence? So we are still stuck not being able to determine what is coincidence and what is God.

If you say it was God everytime you got a result who can argue with that. But do you honestly believe that? Couldn't maybe just one of those "results" be coincidence?

Here's the biggest problem about believing in God because of prayer "results". You have already determined in your heart that whatever happens regarding your prayer is God's doing. So if something happens it is God and if something doesn't happen it is God also. Apparently no matter what you pray whatever happens is God's doing. Then to try to use "answered" prayers to convince others to believe in God when you have already determined that whatever happens regarding the prayer is God's doing is where the real problem lies. Tell them of how you prayed for a sick family member and God answered the prayer by letting them die. Tell them of how you prayed for a man in a wheelchair and God answered it by not letting him walk again. But you don't want to mention how God answered these prayers. You want to mention all the "good" answers to prayer and forget about all the others. It is prayer in this light that makes us say we cannot know what answers are from God and which are just coincidence.