Confess your sin, UPCI!

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

For the record, I don't think that verse in Matthew has anything to do with an unbroken chain of visible believers.

It has to do with the church verses the gates of hell. The church is victorious through Christ, over death and sin.

Isn't the "gates of hades" a term for death or the grave and that promise means that even death of a member will not mean the whole church has died?

Some also teach that the the city gate was where the elders met and "gates of hades" means the government or council or schemes of hades will not destroy God's Church.

One question about that second teaching. Israel was God's people before and even during the captivity in Babylon, weren't they? Did they cease to be God's people while in Babylon? Is it possible that the "Church" went into Babylon/Romish captivity for a while but still remained the Church and has since emerged from captivity? When Israel came out of Babylonian captivity they carried with them some "junk" they'd picked up there. Could the church today still carry some "junk" they picked up in captivity? Would carrying this "junk" cause them to cease being the church?

Some Romish/Babylonian "junk" in the church today could be:
1. The teaching (like in the notes of the Douay Bible at John 3:5) that "born of water" means water baptism properly administered

2. Clergy as a ruling class to be obeyed unquestionably by the laity

3. Clergy holds salvation of the laity in their hands, you must stay in "the church" in order to receive eternal life through the sacraments

4. Large pyramid organization structure with one man (pope or GS) at the top and orders come down from headquarters to all

5. "Holy Tradition" like the manual has equal weight with written Word

6. Written Word only trustworthy as interpreted by clergy

7. Performance based religion or following of rules to get saved and to maintain salvation

8. Etc.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

They would only drift apart if one group or the other made it a divisive issue. The affirmation statement was part of that divisive direction.

We lost some good men when that happened.

I guess I just don't see how two differing opinions on salvation can preach together? At some point, when it gets down to the Nitty Gritty, it's going to be divisive.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sam

Isn't the "gates of hades" a term for death or the grave and that promise means that even death of a member will not mean the whole church has died?

Some also teach that the the city gate was where the elders met and "gates of hades" means the government or council or schemes of hades will not destroy God's Church.

One question about that second teaching. Israel was God's people before and even during the captivity in Babylon, weren't they? Did they cease to be God's people while in Babylon? Is it possible that the "Church" went into Babylon/Romish captivity for a while but still remained the Church and has since emerged from captivity? When Israel came out of Babylonian captivity they carried with them some "junk" they'd picked up there. Could the church today still carry some "junk" they picked up in captivity? Would carrying this "junk" cause them to cease being the church?

Some Romish/Babylonian "junk" in the church today could be:
1. The teaching (like in the notes of the Douay Bible at John 3:5) that "born of water" means water baptism properly administered

2. Clergy as a ruling class to be obeyed unquestionably by the laity

3. Clergy holds salvation of the laity in their hands, you must stay in "the church" in order to receive eternal life through the sacraments

4. Large pyramid organization structure with one man (pope or GS) at the top and orders come down from headquarters to all

5. "Holy Tradition" like the manual has equal weight with written Word

6. Written Word only trustworthy as interpreted by clergy

7. Performance based religion or following of rules to get saved and to maintain salvation

8. Etc.

There were times Israel was backslidden except for a small handful and even then it would not have been know unless God revealed it

[Michael The Disciple]

The gates of Hades is the gates of death. It will not prevail over the Church because Christ will resurrect them from the dead.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I guess I just don't see how two differing opinions on salvation can preach together? At some point, when it gets down to the Nitty Gritty, it's going to be divisive.

The opinions were not that different. First of all they both preached Acts 2:38 and from what I have heard they preached it so "hard" that it was hard to distinguish them.

Preach together? Why can't they preach together? Why can't I preach on baptism with out mentioning "and if you are not baptized this way you are going to hell"?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The opinions were not that different. First of all they both preached Acts 2:38 and from what I have heard they preached it so "hard" that it was hard to distinguish them.

Preach together? Why can't they preach together? Why can't I preach on baptism with out mentioning "and if you are not baptized this way you are going to hell"?

I have friends that I consider Christian brothers and sisters who do not agree with me on everything. Some of them have been sprinkled, some have been immersed with the traditional FS&HG formula, and some have been immersed in the name of Jesus Christ. We are all children of the same God. We just don't see eye to eye on everything. I have a Lutheran friend/brother who believes that baptism (sprinkling) is "born of water" and I have a Roman Catholic friend/brother that believes that baptism (pouring) is "born of water." I also have Apostolic brothers and sisters who believe that water baptism is "born of water." I have Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, and Apostolic brothers and sisters that believe that water baptism is a ceremony that takes place after and separate from being born again.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I guess I just don't see how two differing opinions on salvation can preach together? At some point, when it gets down to the Nitty Gritty, it's going to be divisive.

This is from an article titled “The Blood Covenant” by Howard A. Goss which appeared in the June 1954 Pentecostal Herald, pages 6 and 10


... repentance brings the blood of Jesus to a sinner’s heart to wipe out and cleanse him from all sin, he should then be baptized in water as a confession of his faith in the atonement...

When a sinner fully repents and confesses before God, the blood of Jesus atones for his sins , and cleanses his heart from all sin, and when he is clean then only is he a fit subject for water baptism. After that comes the promise “…you shall receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost…” (Acts 2:38)

The blood and power of the Lord Jesus is the only source of regeneration or the New Birth. Water baptism alone has no power to remit sins, else we could baptize infants as do the Catholics. The Roman Catholic teaches regeneration by water baptism, but it is not according to the Word of God. A candidate for baptism in water should be baptized BECAUSE THE BLOOD has cleansed, remitted, forgiven his sins, and not in order to get them remitted, as WATER ALONE CANNOT WASH AWAY SINS. The old hymn goes:
What can wash away my sins,
Nothing but the Blood of Jesus.

[missourimary]

Sorry to interrupt the good discussion, but can someone please explain why the AS is still an issue when a large majority of those who voted for it must have left the UPC anyway in the last 10 years? I know, now DKB is there and understand he may have helped with it some way (sorry, haven't read enough of Fudge yet) but why wasn't the AS voted down under the last GS? Why was it instead brought to biannually, if that was the case?
I'm not UPC any more, and didn't know much about the manual or the AS while I was UPC. I'm just curious.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

On the other hand the one step group who also does claim Acts 2:38 would have to admit that for 1700 years no one did what the Apostles commanded to be done in the first sermon preached in the New Testament Church.

Au contraire Michel!

The apostles commanded their converts to change their lives to conform with the Christian faith and to then be baptized under the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. They would thusly become disciples of Jesus Christ and receive the promise of the Father.

People been doing that ever since Pentecost 30 A.D.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The gates of Hades is the gates of death. It will not prevail over the Church because Christ will resurrect them from the dead.

Oh yeah! Michael scores with a slam dunk! Sam too.