Is it Ethical?

[Encryptus]

Jewish teaching on the topic


Truth, as Judaism teaches, is a high value but not an absolute one.

The first chapter of Exodus describes the effort by Pharaoh to eliminate the Israelites by drowning their firstborn male babies in the Nile. He appoints Shifra and Puah, two midwives, to carry out this task. But the midwives fear God and, instead of killing the babies, help save them.

Pharaoh, distressed to learn that his murderous campaign is being thwarted, summons the midwives and demands to know why they have disobeyed his order. The Bible tells us that the two women tell Pharaoh a lie: “The Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women: they are vigorous. Before the midwives can come to them, they have given birth” (Exodus 1:19).

Did the Bible feel the midwives’ response was cowardly, and dislike the fact that they lied?

Not at all. The subsequent verses tell us that God “dealt well” with the midwives, and established “households” (large families) for them. In other words, the midwives were right for saving the Israelite infants and for lying to Pharaoh.

In a later incident, God Himself is depicted as instructing a prophet to save himself by telling a lie. Thus, when God tells the prophet Samuel to anoint David as king in lieu of Saul, Samuel is horrified. If Saul learns of what he is doing, the kind will have him executed. God instructs Samuel to tell Saul a lie, that he is making his trip to offer a special sacrifice to God, and not to mention his real purpose (see I Samuel 16).

Of course, God could have told Samuel to tell Saul the truth, and assure the prophet that He would protect him, but instead He tells him to lie. From this, we learn that we should also lie to thwart would-be killers, and not tell them the truth and rely on God to save us.

There are rare instances in which Judaism instructs one to be a martyr. For example, if you can save your life only by killing an innocent person, you are forbidden to do so, and should allow yourself to be killed rather than kill. However, Jewish law condemns as foolish and immoral both telling the truth to an evil person and thereby enabling him to go on doing evil, or telling the truth to an evil person that leads to your murder.

Truth is a high value; the saving of innocent life is a higher one.

[Encryptus]

Actually to the Jew there were only three times where you could not break a commandment, even if it cost you your life.

1. Innocent life would be lost

2. Idolatry

3. Sexual sin.

Other commandments such as lying, Sabbath etc could be broken if a higher good such as saving a life were at stake.

[missourimary]

But the Commandment was not "thou shalt not lie". It was "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." We often paraphrase it and add a bit in doing so. The same with not cursing. "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain" doesn't mean not saying certain four letter words. That is a more of our society, not a Biblical command.

Now, saying that, I must add that it is not a good idea to lie (or to curse). But the Ten Commandments aren't exactly worded as we are wired to think sometimes.

[Encryptus]

Originally Posted by missourimary

But the Commandment was not "thou shalt not lie". It was "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." We often paraphrase it and add a bit in doing so. The same with not cursing. "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain" doesn't mean not saying certain four letter words. That is a more of our society, not a Biblical command.

Now, saying that, I must add that it is not a good idea to lie (or to curse). But the Ten Commandments aren't exactly worded as we are wired to think sometimes.

The principle I was going for was a little more broad especially in the second post. As to the original subject, there can be a conflict between "commandments", the Jews understood that and had a hierarchy of importance.
A type of, but not quite, situational ethics.

[TruthBuyer]

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
6:17 A proud look,
a lying tongue, and
hands that shed innocent blood,
6:18 A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations,
feet that be swift in running to mischief,
6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and
he that soweth discord among brethren.

It's interesting that "a lying tongue" falls between "a proud look" and "hands that shed innocent blood". Seems that the "lying tongue" spoken of here is that which is the offspring of a proud look and tends to the shedding of innocent blood." I.E., seems that Solomon is not merely randomly listing 7 things that God hates, but rather, he is listing them in a very specific order.

In regards to the midwives who lied to Pharoah, theirs was not a lie that was the offspring of a proud look, for their lie led to the saving innocent blood, not the shedding of it.

Whatever, just a thought I had...

John Gill Commentary
Pro 6:17 A proud look,.... Or, "eyes elated" (d); scorning to look down upon others; or looking upon them with disdain; or reckoning them as unworthy to be looked upon, having an high opinion of their own worth and merit.

[mizpeh]

http://theosophical.wordpress.com/20...-is-not-wrong/

[Baron1710]

"A fireman who breaks down the door of a burning home in order to save a child's life is not guilty of breaking the eighth commandment's prohibition of stealing, which normally applies to the willful destruction of another's property."

"Cases involving possible conflicts between telling the truth and saving lives are more difficult to analyze...It could be argued that Rahab, living in the context of war...had no obligation to make full disclosure to the soldiers. Her higher duty to protect the lives of the servants of God suspended the prima facie duty to tell the truth." - Evangelical Ethics, John Jefferson Davis.

There seems to be both in Scripture and an innate understanding that Peoples lives are more important than telling the truth when the telling of a lie would save lives. A higher duty to protect innocent lives is obvious when one is faced with telling the Germans there are Jews in your home or lying and hiding them.

[ILG]

Did Jesus lie, stretch the truth or cover Himself with the word "yet";



John 7
1After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

2Now the Jew's feast of tabernacles was at hand.

3His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.

4For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

5For neither did his brethren believe in him.

6Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.

7The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

8Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.

9When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.

10But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.

11Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he?

[berkeley]

No

[DaveC519]

Hello ILG,

Originally Posted by ILG

We all want to be moral people but sometimes there are shades of gray. Outside the realm of normalcy lies an area where our convictions are tested.

Great thread, BTW! Perhaps thinking about these things causes us to consider what each of us would be willing to sacrifice to "do the right thing". Sometimes doing the right thing does cost us something- even to the point of laying down our life.

Is it ethical to lie to a liar?

Based on Rev 21:8, I would say no. There's been some discussion in this thread about examples of "Godly" characters from the Bible lying and being justified. I think all of these examples are from the OT, and specifically, before the Holy Ghost- the "Spirit of Truth"- was poured out. There was a time when God "winked" at certain actions, but now he commands everyone everywhere to repent (Ac 17:30).

What if a terrorist asked you where your child was hiding and you didn't want your child to be found?

Maybe the answer is to not say anything. Withholding the truth and lying are not the same thing. Perhaps this action would cost me my life. First, I cannot control the actions of others. Yes, I can do everything in my power to stop them (other than sinning), but ultimately, I cannot control their actions.

It is ethical to steal from a stealer? What if this person was the government and they were taking food out of your childrens mouths. Would you cheat on your taxes to feed them?

Stealing displays a lack of faith. God is the source of provision for my family and I. If someone steals from me, God will still provide. If I have the power to change the circumstance that's allowing someone to steal, then I should (without sinning, of course). If I can lock my doors rather than allowing strangers to enter my house and steal, then yes, I should lock the doors!

What if your boss told you to mail an unethical email. Would just mail an email and said you sent an email and evade the issue that the content was not in it?

I would let my boss know I couldn't do it, even if it meant losing my job.

I heard a story about a pastor once who was given pies by a woman who was filthy. He took it out back, put an X on the ground and threw the pie on it. He then told the woman, "That hit the spot sister!"

"Thank you, Sister, for your thoughtfulness and generosity. I pray the Lord richly bless you for your kindness."

If you did these things, would that mean your convictions had changed? Or would it mean you made an exception to your convictions.

So, when and where do YOU draw the line on it's okay to fudge a little.

I draw the line at sin.