***Districts begin to enforce Bernard Doctrine *** - Page 4

Pressing-On · #31 03-10-2010, 10:16 AM

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Apostolic Identity. We are thankful for the tremendous revival and growth that we are experiencing. At the same time, we must acknowledge that a few ministers have begun to question some of our Apostolic distinctives, particularly some aspects of holiness in outward appearance and possibly some aspects of the doctrine of salvation. The District Board unanimously and firmly believes that we must maintain our Apostolic identity on these biblical doctrines of the new birth and holiness, while continuing to press for revival and growth. As a District Board, we take seriously our responsibility to ensure that all our ministers adhere to these scriptural teachings. The District Board has adopted a plan of action and has asked me as district superintendent to follow up on these matters. We understand that the local church is self-governing, that the pastor has authority and responsibility to lead the local church, and that there is room for diversity of opinion and application in many areas. We also understand the need for wisdom, patience, and tolerance in both evangelism and discipleship, proclaiming the life of faith and not legalism. However, we expect that those who are used in public leadership, such as preaching, teaching, and leading in worship, will reflect the values of the New Testament church as understood and proclaimed by the UPCI. If some ministers are seeking direction on these issues, we are available for personal discussion and guidance, and we will provide tools and forums for further study. We don’t want anyone to leave our fellowship, but if some have made a definite decision that they do not believe and will not implement these teachings, then they are no longer in harmony with the UPCI, and the most consistent decision is for them to withdraw.

Daniel,
I don't have a problem with this. If the majority of any group feel strongly about how they view any passage of scripture, or what they deem the Bible is demanding, they will form an organization in support of that view.

Even if we do not agree on every area, they have a right to separate themselves. Others who have left have, in essence, done the same thing - separated themselves to their view of what they believe the Bible is demanding/teaching. There is no difference, IMO.

In DKB's position paper, The Bible’s Teaching about Hair Length:
Culture or Command?, you get a feel of where he is coming from. Gender distinction and modesty is important to him. Gender Distinction is very important to him. If others agree with that, they will join up. If some do not, they will leave. We need to follow whatever direction we feel led of God.

Philippians 1:18 "What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice."

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Conservative scholar Robert Gundry: “Paul’s instructions on the head-covering of women are traditionally understood in terms of veiling (though not with the kind of veil that covers the face as well as the head). On the other hand, he never uses the specific Greek word for a veil; and he says that a woman’s long hair is given her for a covering. In either case his concern is to maintain a visible distinction between women and men with respect to long and short hair.”6

Social scientists Bruce Malina and Jerome Neyrey: “It is impossible to overestimate the importance of honor and shame in the socialization of males and females in the ancient Mediterranean world…. To know the gender of someone was already to know a whole set of norms to which they must conform if they were to be honorable in that society. Such expectations formed clear cultural norms about what clothes (Deut. 22:5), hairdos (1 Cor. 11:4-14), and sexual partners (Rom. 1:26-27) are appropriate to males and females.”7

Liberal critic Bart Ehrman: [B]“Paul maintained that there was still to be a difference between men and women in this world.To eradicate that difference, in Paul’s view, was unnatural and wrong…. It is quite clear from Paul’s arguments that women could and did participate openly in the church alongside men—but they were to do so as women, not as men.”8

Feminist Edith Castelli: “Paul is quite concerned with the careful maintenance of gender differences in appearance (justified in part by the … argument that ‘nature’ affirms the conventional practice of men wearing their hair short and women wearing their hair long) not simply because he thinks it is a good idea, but because he thinks that the created order demands it…. Like 1 Cor 11:2-16, Rom 1:18-32 interweaves its indictment of a particular human practice [homosexuality] with theological propositions. Both texts argue that the human behavior in question—whether it be abandoning conventionally gender-linked appearance and dress (in general or in certain contexts) or engaging in certain apparently non-normative sexual practices—is a violation of a worldly order that is grounded in a cosmically, divinely willed order. Gender differences, according to these texts, are not the mere fruits of social conventions, but are God given and divinely warranted.”9

6Robert Gundry, A Survey of the New Testament, 3d ed. (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1994), 365.

7Bruce Malina and Robert Neyrey, Portraits of Paul: An Archaeology of Ancient Personality (Louisville, Ky.: Westminster John Knox, 1996), 182.

8Bart Ehrman, The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings, 2d ed. (New York: Oxford University Press, 2000), 368.

9Edith Castelli, “Paul on Women and Gender,” in Women & Christian Origins, ed. Ross Shepard Kraemer and Mary Rose D’Angelo (New York: Oxford University Press, 1999), 228-29.

Justin · #32 03-10-2010, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Daniel,
I don't have a problem with this. If the majority of any group feel strongly about how they view any passage of scripture, or what they deem the Bible is demanding, they will form an organization in support of that view.

Even if we do not agree on every area, they have a right to separate themselves. Others who have left have, in essence, done the same thing - separated themselves to their view of what they believe the Bible is demanding/teaching. There is no difference, IMO.

In DKB's position paper, The Bible’s Teaching about Hair Length:
Culture or Command?, you get a feel of where he is coming from. Gender distinction and modesty is important to him. Gender Distinction is very important to him. If others agree with that, they will join up. If some do not, they will leave. We need to follow whatever direction we feel led of God.

Philippians 1:18 "What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice."

Does Bernard teach that the "covering" which is mentioned three times in 1 Cor 11 is hair, or an actual veil?

Pressing-On · #33 03-10-2010, 10:54 AM

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Originally Posted by Justin

Does Bernard teach that the "covering" which is mentioned three times in 1 Cor 11 is hair, or an actual veil?

He believes it is the hair. I agree with him.

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According to verse 15, long hair is the symbolic covering that God has given her.

Verse 15. A woman’s hair is given for her glory and for a covering to satisfy the requirements of the preceding verses.

Salvation is not based on hair length but on a continuing relationship of faith in Jesus Christ. “The just shall live by faith” (Romans 1:17). In this saving relationship, we will grow in grace and knowledge (II Peter 3:18), grace will teach us how to live righteously (Titus 2:11-12), and we will partake of and pursue God’s holiness (Hebrews 12:10, 14). If we deliberately and persistently disobey God’s commands, our actions call into question the reality of our relationship of faith in God. Obedience indicates faith, while disobedience indicates lack of faith. (See Romans 1:5; 10:16-17; Hebrews 11:7-8.)

Jermyn Davidson · #34 03-10-2010, 01:14 PM

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Originally Posted by mizpeh

Don't you wish!

LOL!!!

NotforSale · #35 03-10-2010, 01:49 PM

Was thinking about all of this. Why is the attack always towards those who question motive and reason that might bend in the direction of removing a standard implemented by "The Church", leaving alone the extreme Right, where mental and spiritual abuse is prominent?

I know Pastors who "Look the Part" to a tee, but forbid ANY divorce. In fact, if you divorce you will be asked to leave. Some even feel if you've remarried, you must divorce your current spouse and go back to the other. If you do wind up alone, you may NEVER remarry, even if the other party goes off and marries and starts another family. This Pastor even preaches, if you were in the World and got married and divorced, you still can't remarry after becomming a Christian.

My daughter went to a youth event years ago in one UPCI Church, and the young people were forbidden to ride a roller coaster that was at the Mall. They also celebrate no Christmas, no internet, no slits, no video cameras, sleeves to the wrist, men can't wear colored shirts to church, no mustaches or facial hair, no gold bands on watches, and the list goes on.

My daughter said the girls in the Church were scared to death to get married. Fear was in every move they made.

Why don't they target men like this?? The Dictators and Demanders?? I don't get it.

*AQuietPlace* · #36 03-10-2010, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Was thinking about all of this. Why is the attack always towards those who question motive and reason that might bend in the direction of removing a standard implemented by "The Church", leaving alone the extreme Right, where mental and spiritual abuse is prominent?

I know Pastors who "Look the Part" to a tee, but forbid ANY divorce. In fact, if you divorce you will be asked to leave. Some even feel if you've remarried, you must divorce your current spouse and go back to the other. If you do wind up alone, you may NEVER remarry, even if the other party goes off and marries and starts another family. This Pastor even preaches, if you were in the World and got married and divorced, you still can't remarry after becomming a Christian.

My daughter went to a youth event years ago in one UPCI Church, and the young people were forbidden to ride a roller coaster that was at the Mall. They also celebrate no Christmas, no internet, no slits, no video cameras, sleeves to the wrist, men can't wear colored shirts to church, no mustaches or facial hair, no gold bands on watches, and the list goes on.

My daughter said the girls in the Church were scared to death to get married. Fear was in every move they made.

Why don't they target men like this?? The Dictators and Demanders?? I don't get it.

That's an interesting question.

dizzyde · #37 03-10-2010, 02:08 PM

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Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

That's an interesting question.

I've had problems with the licensing process for a long time. It is more than a little scary to me how these young men are given a ministerial license with very little training or education, and then sent off with very little follow up.

a lot of times these guys go off to small towns and pastor churches with no one really overseeing what is going on. Granted, there are presbyters to step in when there are problems or complaints, but most of the time they are pastoring largely uneducated (Biblically or otherwise) congregations, who really don't know what the proper boundaries should be.

It sets up a situation that is ripe for ministerial abuse, and I have seen it happen many times, some times in relatively harmless ways, and others that are definitely more harmful.

notofworks · #38 03-10-2010, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dizzyde

I've had problems with the licensing process for a long time. It is more than a little scary to me how these young men are given a ministerial license with very little training or education, and then sent off with very little follow up.

a lot of times these guys go off to small towns and pastor churches with no one really overseeing what is going on. Granted, there are presbyters to step in when there are problems or complaints, but most of the time they are pastoring largely uneducated (Biblically or otherwise) congregations, who really don't know what the proper boundaries should be.

It sets up a situation that is ripe for ministerial abuse, and I have seen it happen many times, some times in relatively harmless ways, and others that are definitely more harmful.

I might think that a larger issue would be the licensing of someone who does have training, is sent off to pastor a church, and despite the training is still a complete idiot.

KWSS1976 · #39 03-10-2010, 02:17 PM

Yea we have one in our church just got his licence...He was speaking in tongues while he had his hand on someones head I guess praying for them. I guess he has not read the insturction in Coritihians on how tongues is supposed to be used....

notofworks · #40 03-10-2010, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

Yea we have one in our church just got his licence...He was speaking in tongues while he had his hand on someones head I guess praying for them. I guess he has not read the insturction in Coritihians on how tongues is supposed to be used....

I love it when you start this!