The Altar Call: Does the means justify the end?

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

The news is, we all deserve death, but there's a way out... here's it is....

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

First, I don't believe in Joel Osteen's self-help back massaging. Nor do I believe in a clenched-fist presentation of the Gospel. I DO believe in "love talk." How did Jesus present the Kingdom?

You threw up so many scriptures that are independent of each other that it would be quite difficult for me to go through each one on this post. I'll address only a few:


Who is the audience? Who is the "generation of vipers" he is speaking out against?

That was my point. I said it depends on the audience. Grace to the humble, law to the proud etc etc.

This is your text to justify scare tactics and emotional manipulation, ends-justify-the-means approaches to sharing the Good News?

No this is my text to justify preaching/teaching what the bible does to those that need to hear it

Luke 10 -- this wasn't an appeal for them to come to salvation. These were groanings of Jesus. From what I read, it wasn't even a sermon.

We run short on proof-texts because altar calls (altar showdowns) have no biblical precedent -- at all. nada. none.

warning people to turn to God or repent is a biblical precedent. Alter calls simply became a convenient way to lead people to Christ or repentance or an opportunity to be prayed for. Of course they can stay in their pews and do that too.

As far as revelation. This letter from John was HOPE not FEAR to the churches. I would wager that what makes people geek out into decoding the letter, that to most of Christianity in that day, was understood. The encoding of the letter was so that the letter would not bring consequences on them if it were interecepted by authorities. It is Hope. I'd dare say they read it, dragging people by the coat collar to the altars.

As I said, it was a warning. It wasn't all just preaching the gospel or "I love you"...God's love is essential, but not all people come to God just because you tell them "God loves you", generally unless they are really in a bad place and feeling lonely or something. What is the reason why we come to God? We come because we are sinners and He died for us and provides for us the means to become saved. Being told we are sinners or being guilty of sins is met with the Love of God. Law to the proud, grace to the humble.

Certain kinds of preaching will bring a person to a realization that they are lost and worthy of death

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

As I said, it depends on who we are addressing and the pressing need they have. Do they need to hear or know they are sinners and separated from the Love of God and worth of Judgment? Maybe, maybe not. Or maybe they know that and need to hear the good news.

Same with church members as Revelation shows us. What do they need to hear? A dire warning? Or words of encouragement? We find all that in those letters

Your note about Felix. It began with this in v24 He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus. I can't help but believe Felix's fear was not stemmed only from the judgement talk, which is implied, but a fear we've seen in people who begin to "see it." The Kingdom is presented to them and they have to make a choice. Felix is a corrupt and evil man, hoping even that these talks would produce a bribe from Paul, and instead he finds himself in conviction. There's nothing here about Paul using fear to control Felix, and of course nothing of an emotional altar call showdown.

Sill, we have a written example that Paul spoke to him, in the matters of Christ included "And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and the Judgment to come"

Paul felt this audience needed to hear that

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

That was my point. I said it depends on the audience. Grace to the humble, law to the proud etc etc.

I believe it does as well. I'll speak more to that later in this note

No this is my text to justify preaching/teaching what the bible does to those that need to hear it What the Bible does to those that need to hear it? I'm not sure what you mean.


warning people to turn to God or repent is a biblical precedent. Alter calls simply became a convenient way to lead people to Christ or repentance or an opportunity to be prayed for. Of course they can stay in their pews and do that too. Sure. And it's at once a "warning" but in reality such an incredible opportunity. I lean toward the latter. Altar appeals have value, but they've taken over the church and are now the focal point... and the place where the worst manipulation happens.


As I said, it was a warning. It wasn't all just preaching the gospel or "I love you"...God's love is essential, but not all people come to God just because you tell them "God loves you", generally unless they are really in a bad place and feeling lonely or something. What is the reason why we come to God? We come because we are sinners and He died for us and provides for us the means to become saved. Being told we are sinners or being guilty of sins is met with the Love of God. Law to the proud, grace to the humble.
Was The Revelation of Jesus a warning? That's how you summarize it? I'm not against being told we are sinners!!! But it's not a complete Gospel unless the entire focus of the Story, redemption, is announced. Its a joyful occassion. Kill the fatted calf. Rejoice.

Do WE give grace to the humble, law to the proud, or does GOD?


Certain kinds of preaching will bring a person to a realization that they are lost and worthy of death

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

GREAT point. Romans is my favorite example of this. None of the indictments were meant as an end-all to cause people to fear. The entire book is filled with HOPE not FEAR. We can't fully understand grace unless we fully understand the depravity of our condition, and the consequences of our sin.

As I said, it depends on who we are addressing and the pressing need they have. Do they need to hear or know they are sinners and separated from the Love of God and worth of Judgment? Maybe, maybe not. Or maybe they know that and need to hear the good news.

We are all worthy of judgement, Prax! Don't ALL need to know about the Grace of God? I'm convinced Grace works. It works!! "Backslider," "lukewarm" or unbeliever. It works. If it's not, I'd suggest we think about how we are telling the story.

Same with church members as Revelation shows us. What do they need to hear? A dire warning? Or words of encouragement? We find all that in those letters


Sill, we have a written example that Paul spoke to him, in the matters of Christ included "And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and the Judgment to come"

Paul felt this audience needed to hear that

I think what's getting mixed here is that I don't believe we should talk about sin. That's not it at all. We can't understand the wonder of His grace until we know the misery of our current condition, status and wages earned.

What is being discussed is purposefully emotionally scaring people, (anything it takes, telling wild stories, I've heard some prophesy death if they don't come, I've heard some claim other awful things, I've heard so many times "this MAY be your last chance," I've heard false claims about the Coming of the LORD happening within x amount of years (or within the year), and other high pressure showdowns aimed at causing the person to "give in." )

Tell the story. Don't leave out details. But must we create an emotional showdown, complete with group pressure, false prophecies and erratic tales to get someone to "make the walk?"

[ManOfWord]

Honesty and integrity can never be thrown out the window for a response. Many times the emotional/dishonest plea only results in a response that #1 is not from the heart & #2 does not last. It looks good for the evangelist/preacher and the church, but what does God think of it. Just because someone goes to an altar doesn't mean they have given their life to Jesus Christ. I would much rather have someone leave, count the cost and make an "all in" decision instead of someone being able to boast about "how many came forward" etc.

Personally, I simply want to see a real God work! Dispense with the hype and the fluff. If it's God, it doesn't need pumped up or worked up or shouted up or rubbed in! I just want the real move of God!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

I think what's getting mixed here is that I don't believe we should talk about sin. That's not it at all. We can't understand the wonder of His grace until we know the misery of our current condition, status and wages earned.

What is being discussed is purposefully emotionally scaring people, (anything it takes, telling wild stories, I've heard some prophesy death if they don't come, I've heard some claim other awful things, I've heard so many times "this MAY be your last chance," I've heard false claims about the Coming of the LORD happening within x amount of years (or within the year), and other high pressure showdowns aimed at causing the person to "give in." )

Tell the story. Don't leave out details. But must we create an emotional showdown, complete with group pressure, false prophecies and erratic tales to get someone to "make the walk?"

I don't believe in using false claims at all. I have an issue with many evangelists I have encountered that exaggerate things or use untrue stories.

However warning some of the wrath to come, might cause some to become fearful and turn to God. I don't have an issue with that as long as you are preaching the Love of God as the answer to judgment

I do have a problem with all things emotional that are not tempered with rational, objective teaching of the word. Emotions are fleeting and people that merely come to God based on emotions and not also on the truth of the word, might not stay long

I don't believe in false prophecies, I don't believe in lying ever justifies the ends.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I don't believe in using false claims at all. I have an issue with many evangelists I have encountered that exaggerate things or use untrue stories.

However warning some of the wrath to come, might cause some to become fearful and turn to God. I don't have an issue with that as long as you are preaching the Love of God as the answer to judgment

I do have a problem with all things emotional that are not tempered with rational, objective teaching of the word. Emotions are fleeting and people that merely come to God based on emotions and not also on the truth of the word, might not stay long

I don't believe in false prophecies, I don't believe in lying ever justifies the ends.

I can agree with that... for the most part.

Even with judgement, I use it as storyboard for me to get to Grace.