Restoring fallen ministers

[aegsm76]

Hopefully I posted the link correctly.
Just looking for comments on the difference between the organization's response here and most "Apostolic" org's.
Although this is not applicable to me, I have seen several minister's whose life's were destroyed by this. Only one, that I can think of, survived with his family intact. He is now an independent pastor with a great church.

http://www.newsok.com/crossroads-chu...ad_story_title

[deadeye]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Hopefully I posted the link correctly.
Just looking for comments on the difference between the organization's response here and most "Apostolic" org's.
Although this is not applicable to me, I have seen several minister's whose life's were destroyed by this. Only one, that I can think of, survived with his family intact. He is now an independent pastor with a great church.

http://www.newsok.com/crossroads-chu...ad_story_title

Actually i think restoring fallen ministers is a great idea....not totally sure about restoring them to a pastor ship....but Gods calling does not leave a person and if they can be restored that is great.

[Liberal]

Originally Posted by deadeye

Actually i think restoring fallen ministers is a great idea....not totally sure about restoring them to a pastor ship....but Gods calling does not leave a person and if they can be restored that is great.

Can you tell me why? Someone, I believe Sam, posted something about the word "Restore" which means to go back to original status. If ministers are not restored back to pastoring, what are they being restored to?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Liberal

Can you tell me why? Someone, I believe Sam, posted something about the word "Restore" which means to go back to original status. If ministers are not restored back to pastoring, what are they being restored to?

I thought "to go back to original status" referred to their relationship with God. A persons "ministry" isn't their relationship with God and if they thought it was, maybe that had to do with how they fell

[Liberal]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I thought "to go back to original status" referred to their relationship with God. A persons "ministry" isn't their relationship with God and if they thought it was, maybe that had to do with how they fell

But that restoration is automatic and instantaneous the moment it's requested. What is the scriptural basis for prohibiting someone from leading again? If the "Jesus Standard" (Matthew 5) for moral failure were used to qualify people for ministry, there wouldn't be a single minister anywhere.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Liberal

Can you tell me why? Someone, I believe Sam, posted something about the word "Restore" which means to go back to original status. If ministers are not restored back to pastoring, what are they being restored to?

This is what I posted previously:

According to the dictionary, to "restore" means to bring back to a former or original condition. When something is restored in the Scriptures, however, it is always increased, multiplied, or improved so that its latter state is significantly better than its original estate.

That is from page 149 (or maybe page 199 because my 4's and 9's look alike) of Son Of A Preacher Man by Jay Bakker (son of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker)

King David committed adultery and murder and was restored. He was not allowed to build the temple because he was a bloody man but he did continue to write psalms and prophesy in the Holy Ghost.

Peter denied the Lord openly but was used as the spokesman a couple of months later at Pentecost in Acts chapter 2.

The disciples abandoned Jesus and fled but He told them to go back to Jerusalem and proclaim His Word. It would have been easier for them to go someplace else where their failures were not so well known.

John Mark left the ministry team of the Apostles Paul and Barnabas in the summer of AD 47. When they decided to go back out together Barnabas wanted to take John Mark along with them but Paul did not. They had such a heated contention over it that they split up and went separate ways (spring AD 50). Years later (AD 68) the Apostle Paul requested for Mark to come to him and said that "he is profitable to me for the ministry).

God is a God of
the second chance,
the third chance,
the fourth chance,
etc.

If He expects us mortals to forgive 70 X 7, how often does He forgive?

God's grace is amazing and is not understood by many, especially those who are outside the church. Those of us inside the church don't do too well understanding it either. Grace is not fair.

[Liberal]

Originally Posted by Sam

This is what I posted previously:

According to the dictionary, to "restore" means to bring back to a former or original condition. When something is restored in the Scriptures, however, it is always increased, multiplied, or improved so that its latter state is significantly better than its original estate.

That is from page 149 (or maybe page 199 because my 4's and 9's look alike) of Son Of A Preacher Man by Jay Bakker (son of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker)

King David committed adultery and murder and was restored. He was not allowed to build the temple because he was a bloody man but he did continue to write psalms and prophesy in the Holy Ghost.

Peter denied the Lord openly but was used as the spokesman a couple of months later at Pentecost in Acts chapter 2.

The disciples abandoned Jesus and fled but He told them to go back to Jerusalem and proclaim His Word. It would have been easier for them to go someplace else where their failures were not so well known.

John Mark left the ministry team of the Apostles Paul and Barnabas in the summer of AD 47. When they decided to go back out together Barnabas wanted to take John Mark along with them but Paul did not. They had such a heated contention over it that they split up and went separate ways (spring AD 50). Years later (AD 68) the Apostle Paul requested for Mark to come to him and said that "he is profitable to me for the ministry).

God is a God of
the second chance,
the third chance,
the fourth chance,
etc.

If He expects us mortals to forgive 70 X 7, how often does He forgive?

God's grace is amazing and is not understood by many, especially those who are outside the church. Those of us inside the church don't do too well understanding it either. Grace is not fair.

Thanks Sam!! That is amazing.....as is grace! I just cannot accept that "fallen" ministers cannot be put back to where they were in a short amount of time. That's what happened to Peter when he sat by a fire and used vulgarities to deny the dying Christ.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Liberal

But that restoration is automatic and instantaneous the moment it's requested. What is the scriptural basis for prohibiting someone from leading again? If the "Jesus Standard" (Matthew 5) for moral failure were used to qualify people for ministry, there wouldn't be a single minister anywhere.

What do you mean it's instantaneous? His relationship or salvation? Sure. But is that person instantly ready to lead again over night? Are they instantly healed spiritually/mentally?

Restoration is not merely restoring their faith in God, but even that can take time to fully restore. But there is personal, emotional, mental things to deal with plus since the church is the organ God uses to put people in leadership (see Timothy and Titus), then it's up to the church whether or not they feel such a man or woman has really been restored.

You think a man that has been in adultery for 3 years or so can come back to a church, claim to have repented then demand a pastoral position all over night?

That kind of trust and healing takes time. There are standards in the bible for such leadership and once someone has failed it takes time to be restored to that kind of standard

Whether or not such a man should ever be allowed to lead again? That's a different issue. It's a trust issue. I can see in many situations where a man can be trusted again, but as I said it takes some time

[Liberal]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

What do you mean it's instantaneous? His relationship or salvation? Sure. But is that person instantly ready to lead again over night? Are they instantly healed spiritually/mentally?

Restoration is not merely restoring their faith in God, but even that can take time to fully restore. But there is personal, emotional, mental things to deal with plus since the church is the organ God uses to put people in leadership (see Timothy and Titus), then it's up to the church whether or not they feel such a man or woman has really been restored.

You think a man that has been in adultery for 3 years or so can come back to a church, claim to have repented then demand a pastoral position all over night?

That kind of trust and healing takes time. There are standards in the bible for such leadership and once someone has failed it takes time to be restored to that kind of standard

Whether or not such a man should ever be allowed to lead again? That's a different issue. It's a trust issue. I can see in many situations where a man can be trusted again, but as I said it takes some time

Our right-standing with God is instantaneous when we turn.

Do I think it should happen overnight? In most cases, probably not. Maybe in all cases. But Peter did much worse than adultery (my opinion) and was the featured speaker the day The Church was birthed just days later.

I'm not claiming to have the absolute answer here, but long, drawn-out times of "proving" are ridiculous and unscriptural, in my opinion.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Liberal

Our right-standing with God is instantaneous when we turn.

Exactly but right standing with God and being a leader are not the same things

Do I think it should happen overnight? In most cases, probably not. Maybe in all cases. But Peter did much worse than adultery (my opinion) and was the featured speaker the day The Church was birthed just days later.

We aren't merely talking about a brief lapse of faith are we? I was thinking more of someone that walks away from God. From the day he claimed to not know the Lord till the day he was filled with boldness to preach, was actually quite a while with a lot of healing going on and apparently enough.

But remember he hadn't yet taken the leadership helm yet. It was not till after the fact, so he was not the fallen leader of the Apostles.