Now, that is funny! It is almost a good as the preacher who refuses to use commentaries in his sermon preparation, because he doesn't think someone else's personal ideas on what the scriptures mean has very much spiritual and/or teaching value.
I have actually heard that message preached!
Not sure I've heard that preached, but the concept has been posted here, a number of times. Let the Bible interpret itself! It doesn't need interpreting, they say! The trouble with this is that the Bible is ambiguous in many places. Another trouble is that there are some apparently unambiguous things that can't be true, taken at face value.
John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Apparently, to make this true, you have to consider context, dig out the preconditions, understand the big picture, etc. Then, what's left? Roughly, we have the equivalent of "if you ask me to do something, I might do it and I might not". Why is that scripture even there?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Not sure I've heard that preached, but the concept has been posted here, a number of times. Let the Bible interpret itself! It doesn't need interpreting, they say! The trouble with this is that the Bible is ambiguous in many places. Another trouble is that there are some apparently unambiguous things that can't be true, taken at face value.
John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Apparently, to make this true, you have to consider context, dig out the preconditions, understand the big picture, etc. Then, what's left? Roughly, we have the equivalent of "if you ask me to do something, I might do it and I might not". Why is that scripture even there?
I apologize for not being more clear. The message in my post was: There are a number of "teachers" who take the position of, "All commentaries on the Bible are a waste of time. i.e. are of little or no value, excerpt my own, which I deliver on Sunday morning. And, which I fully expect you all to accept as Gospel.!" A satirical statement on spiritual pride: My ideas and understanding are better (more correct) than everyone else's.
There are only three basic positions one can take with a question such as the one you asked. (1) Please, someone instruct me in how to understand the Bible. I am getting really desperate here. (2) You folks really don't what you believe - or why, and I am going to have some fun with you. or (3) I already have "the answers" and I am just trying to draw you out so I can expose your false thinking.
In the case of the first position, you need to seek out a face to face meeting with a creditable Bible teacher (pastor, elder, etc) and discuss your questions and spiritual issues with him/her. Attend a solid Bible study class, where you can ask pointed questions and where a personal, give and take duologue can be entered into.
As to the remaining two basic positions, they are only those who love to play religious right/wrong and one-upmanship games. It is unfortunate, but there seems to be an over abundance of folks who like those sort of activities. I don't, and I don't play.
Now, there does exist a forth position, which is becoming a rarity on many forums, and that is where people actually engage in discussions for the purpose of exchanging information, ideas, experiences, concepts/understanding, etc. so that mutual growth in the knowledge of God may increase - and personal, spiritual maturity has the opportunity to be achieved and exercised. That is, where one person instructs another, and in turn is instructed by others. Where the best teachers are also the best students.
The question now is which position have you taken, and how do you plan to demonstrate it?
__________________
It makes no difference whether you study in the holy language, or in Arabic, or Aramaic [or in Greek or even in English]; it matters only whether it is done with understanding. - Moshe Maimonides.
Last edited by A.W. Bowman; 01-06-2009 at 12:39 PM.
Reason: Clean up some typos and grammar
After reading through this forum the last few days, I have to just repeat--no, God's Word doesn't confuse me. People confuse me. People's interpretations and conclusions from God's Word confuse me. But when I just read the Bible--I don't get confused. It brings me clarity.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
After reading through this forum the last few days, I have to just repeat--no, God's Word doesn't confuse me. People confuse me. People's interpretations and conclusions from God's Word confuse me. But when I just read the Bible--I don't get confused. It brings me clarity.
That is truly a blessed place to find one's self in. But, for me, it doesn't seem to leave a lot of room open for teaching or discussions concerning the things of God. And, I admit that I still need a lot of both.
__________________
It makes no difference whether you study in the holy language, or in Arabic, or Aramaic [or in Greek or even in English]; it matters only whether it is done with understanding. - Moshe Maimonides.
I apologize for not being more clear. The message in my post was: There are a number of "teachers" who take the position of, "All commentaries on the Bible are a waste of time. i.e. are of little or no value, excerpt my own, which I deliver on Sunday morning. And, which I fully expect you all to accept as Gospel.!" A satirical statement on spiritual pride: My ideas and understanding are better (more correct) than everyone else's.
There are only three basic positions one can take with a question such as the one you asked. (1) Please, someone instruct me in how to understand the Bible. I am getting really desperate here. (2) You folks really don't what you believe - or why, and I am going to have some fun with you. or (3) I already have "the answers" and I am just trying to draw you out so I can expose your false thinking.
In the case of the first position, you need to seek out a face to face meeting with a creditable Bible teacher (pastor, elder, etc) and discuss your questions and spiritual issues with him/her. Attend a solid Bible study class, where you can ask pointed questions and where a personal, give and take duologue can be entered into.
As to the remaining two basic positions, they are only those who love to play religious right/wrong and one-upmanship games. It is unfortunate, but there seems to be an over abundance of folks who like those sort of activities. I don't, and I don't play.
Now, there does exist a forth position, which is becoming a rarity on many forums, and that is where people actually engage in discussions for the purpose of exchanging information, ideas, experiences, concepts/understanding, etc. so that mutual growth in the knowledge of God may increase - and personal, spiritual maturity has the opportunity to be achieved and exercised. That is, where one person instructs another, and in turn is instructed by others. Where the best teachers are also the best students.
The question now is which position have you taken, and how do you plan to demonstrate it?
Can I be in all four, to some extent?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
__________________
It makes no difference whether you study in the holy language, or in Arabic, or Aramaic [or in Greek or even in English]; it matters only whether it is done with understanding. - Moshe Maimonides.
I apologize for not being more clear. The message in my post was: There are a number of "teachers" who take the position of, "All commentaries on the Bible are a waste of time. i.e. are of little or no value, excerpt my own, which I deliver on Sunday morning. And, which I fully expect you all to accept as Gospel.!" A satirical statement on spiritual pride: My ideas and understanding are better (more correct) than everyone else's.
There are only three basic positions one can take with a question such as the one you asked. (1) Please, someone instruct me in how to understand the Bible. I am getting really desperate here. (2) You folks really don't what you believe - or why, and I am going to have some fun with you. or (3) I already have "the answers" and I am just trying to draw you out so I can expose your false thinking.
In the case of the first position, you need to seek out a face to face meeting with a creditable Bible teacher (pastor, elder, etc) and discuss your questions and spiritual issues with him/her. Attend a solid Bible study class, where you can ask pointed questions and where a personal, give and take duologue can be entered into.
As to the remaining two basic positions, they are only those who love to play religious right/wrong and one-upmanship games. It is unfortunate, but there seems to be an over abundance of folks who like those sort of activities. I don't, and I don't play.
Now, there does exist a forth position, which is becoming a rarity on many forums, and that is where people actually engage in discussions for the purpose of exchanging information, ideas, experiences, concepts/understanding, etc. so that mutual growth in the knowledge of God may increase - and personal, spiritual maturity has the opportunity to be achieved and exercised. That is, where one person instructs another, and in turn is instructed by others. Where the best teachers are also the best students.
The question now is which position have you taken, and how do you plan to demonstrate it?
This is interesting as Timmy and I are often approaching things from a similar angle. In this, though, we are probably different. I honestly don't believe that I fit into either of the first 3 categories. I neither want anyone here to "fix" my knowledge of spiritual matters (including the Bible), nor do I want to "fix" theirs, and I have no desire to mock anyone elses sincerely held beliefs.
I do believe that I am in stage #4, or at least that I am striving to do so. I like to discuss issues because I am interested in what other people believe, and feel that we can learn (or at the least strengthen our own beliefs) from each other.
Hey Praxeas! Been doing word comparisons, have we? LOLOL You really do good, bro.
BTW, I have missed you being a member of my community, since the old Christian Corner closed up.
Now, lets continue the process and take a look at the Greek word (Apelueto) (G561,from G576, & G1725) as used in this Septuagint (LXX) rendering of the verse. The "face to face" idiom drops off and "in the presence of" emerges to the forefront. This gives us a clue as to which of the meanings of the original Hebrew was intended to be understood. This, of course, redirects our attention away from a "eye to eye" type exchange back to "in the presence of", a picture of close proximity (intimacy) of the participants.
There is a Greek/Hebrew study thread somewhere on this forum - you might like to check it out and contribute some of your studies there. I would really like to see some of your work.
I'd like to explore this more. I argued once that "to seek the face of God" was idiomatic for seeking His favor. So I wondered if "face to face" was not somehow connected to that very idea. Surely if you are favored enough you might have had a more direct encounter with God "in His presence" than others.
This comes by way of some that assert they saw God in the OT, where God said no man can see Him and live and in the NT we are told no man has seen God at any time.
BTW how I got to looking at Prosopon. Prosopon is the Greek equivelent of the Latin Persona. Persona is of course where we get Person from. However Trinitarians would never ever agree to persona to represent Father, Son and Spirit as it means "mask" of an actor essentially..
The greek/Latin word they used was hypostasis, which means substance or foundation. Essentially then hypostasis is what is underneath. Prosopon or Persona is what is above...it's the part you see. It's the physical appearence or presence of a person.
God has no physical "parts" except considering the incarnation. In the OT, however some did "see" something. But if definitionally God is a non-physical being then what they saw was only representative.
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Something that is confusing is never understandable. Something that simply eludes my understanding for the time being is not confusing. It maybe simply a deeper subject than my intellect is able to understand with a limited knowledge I have at the moment, which means I need to study more
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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