Tulsa Report Day 2

[embonpoint]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Don't believe everything you hear on these forums!

What a concept!! Are you sure this isn't a little heretical???

Actually good advice for us all.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

With all due respect, jrLA, you weren't there to feel the Spirit of God or the kindness these men operated with. The guideline was laid down in the very beginning with an open "If your here to attack the UPC you might as well leave now" expression.

EVERYONE I've spoken to were (a) relieved that it was NOT allowed to be a 'bash UPC' meeting and (b) blessed by the 'no pressure to break ties' atmosphere that was there.

Those are great men and, trust me, I know each of the coordinators personally and they are well able to speak exactly what they feel and believe... even if it hurts you to hear it. They had a great spirit and I'm glad they conducted themselves with more dignity than some of the forum posters have shown towards their efforts.

In closing, I've watched you and seen your postings. I genuinely think you're a sincere individual. I also think that you would have found a kindred sincerity there. Don't believe everything you hear on these forums!

But don't you believe by their very NEED to start a MORE Apostolic way is anti-UPC? No, it's not actually saying we think they are terrible, but it DOES say we don't agree with them so we want a BETTER way and we are disassociating ourselves from them.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

But don't you believe by their very NEED to start a MORE Apostolic way is anti-UPC? No, it's not actually saying we think they are terrible, but it DOES say we don't agree with them so we want a BETTER way and we are disassociating ourselves from them.

Yep, that's the message they are sending loud and clear.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

But don't you believe by their very NEED to start a MORE Apostolic way is anti-UPC? No, it's not actually saying we think they are terrible, but it DOES say we don't agree with them so we want a BETTER way and we are disassociating ourselves from them.

Sadly, I agree.

The very words of the preamble attest to this...

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Barb

Sadly, I agree.

The very words of the preamble attest to this...

Of course it does. People are people. You can't divide up churches and families and keep a "good spirit" about it. I have no doubt in my mind the services are great in Tulsa and the words are good, but just like any other meeting.....those feeling can be fleeting.

In time will this all settle down, sure it will and everyone will go their own ways. Will some be the better for it, probably. Will some not be, possibly.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

But don't you believe by their very NEED to start a MORE Apostolic way is anti-UPC? No, it's not actually saying we think they are terrible, but it DOES say we don't agree with them so we want a BETTER way and we are disassociating ourselves from them.

Renda,

I am by no means a spokesman or apologist for the WWPF, though I am acquainted with some of the men involved, and have friends going that way.

But I do think I have some understanding of their thinking.

I am sure there are men involved whose motives and intents aren't 100% pristine. My knowledge of human nature tells me that.

But there has been a feeling shared by many that the UPC is drifting to the left. I think it probably is myself. In fact, there really is no denying that. The questions are, how far will it drift, and how fast? And how is this drift going to affect me and my local fellowship?

Some of the men putting this thing together live in places where the things they deal with at district events is a far cry from what I see. And if I were in those locations, I might have a different point of view than I do now.

The concern expressed by many going Tulsa way is direction. Where are the changes the UPC is undergoing leading? Will the UPC my kids see in 20 years be something I would want them being connected to?

Obviously, we see things very differently regarding these matters, but I share some of the concerns of the Tulsa brethren. It just happens that I am in a rather isolated and extremely conservative area, and our people aren't much affected by the goings on in more "progressive" venues.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Renda,

I am by no means a spokesman or apologist for the WWPF, though I am acquainted with some of the men involved, and have friends going that way.

But I do think I have some understanding of their thinking.

I am sure there are men involved whose motives and intents aren't 100% pristine. My knowledge of human nature tells me that.

But there has been a feeling shared by many that the UPC is drifting to the left. I think it probably is myself. In fact, there really is no denying that. The questions are, how far will it drift, and how fast? And how is this drift going to affect me and my local fellowship?

Some of the men putting this thing together live in places where the things they deal with at district events is a far cry from what I see. And if I were in those locations, I might have a different point of view than I do now.

The concern expressed by many going Tulsa way is direction. Where are the changes the UPC is undergoing leading? Will the UPC my kids see in 20 years be something I would want them being connected to?

Obviously, we see things very differently regarding these matters, but I share some of the concerns of the Tulsa brethren. It just happens that I am in a rather isolated and extremely conservative area, and our people aren't much affected by the goings on in more "progressive" venues.

From your keyboard to the ears of God! I sure hope you are right. Perhaps with these conservative men now off doing their own thing (I give them a honeymoon period of a year or two then they will be fussing and fighting with each other over so called "holiness standards") the UPC will live up to it's potential to bring the Oneness Jesus Name message to the world.

Initially the UPC will appear more conservative though, I believe, as it reacts to the Tulsa Worldwide Apostolic Pentecostal Holiness Movement Incorporated. There will be more "holding the fort" messages than ever but hopefully over time you and the other cons and ultra cons who have been bemoaning the "drift to the left" will be proven right as common sense, logic, and Biblical principles will prevail.

[NW Pastor]

Why did you have to? I was also in California for years, and there is indeed much diversity. But what were the drastic changes? What was so bad that caused the separation. Was it "holiness" issues or otherwise? Also, although no one was excluded, was everyone included?

I have been in the "holiness" churches and found the youth much like the others. Rambunctious, fun loving, and very imperfect. It's the nature of the beast.

[connielori]

Originally Posted by NW Pastor

Why did you have to? I was also in California for years, and there is indeed much diversity. But what were the drastic changes? What was so bad that caused the separation. Was it "holiness" issues or otherwise?

I have been in the "holiness" churches and found the youth much like the others. Rambunctious, fun loving, and very imperfect. It's the nature of the beast.

I really would rather not get into the details. (I really don't want to be taken wrong. Or sound like I'm mud slinging.) What I would like to emphasize is that no one was ever excluded. Most people just feel more comfortable being around others that are more like them. I love everyone, and want everyone to be saved. But I have to seek out my own salvation with fear and trembling. We are very humbly trying to do that.

Originally Posted by NW Pastor

I grieve for the loss of great men in our midst. However, we have already lost them. James said that men went out from us because they were not of us.

Many of the men at Tulsa have already formed associations that shut out others in the organization, even to the extent of sponsoring alternate youth camps and such like.

As dissapointed as I am about the loss of community, I have this vain wish that the men in leadership of the WPF be forthcoming about their intentions.

They will be out in time, because they have already left in the heart.

Originally Posted by connielori

I am from California, and can tell you first hand....*I refuse to go into details, (don't agree w/mud slinging) but we are ones that have looked for other alternatives. Not to shut anyone out....no one was excluded. Just HAD to. Drastic changes caused it.

Originally Posted by NW Pastor

Why did you have to? I was also in California for years, and there is indeed much diversity. But what were the drastic changes? What was so bad that caused the separation. Was it "holiness" issues or otherwise? Also, although no one was excluded, was everyone included?

I have been in the "holiness" churches and found the youth much like the others. Rambunctious, fun loving, and very imperfect. It's the nature of the beast.

Friends... I can attest to the fact that some issues are almost pushing some of these brethren into these actions. Let me tell you how I see it from my perspective.

I preach a lot of these meetings (I already have over 30 meetings lined up this year while Pastoring a great revival Church). I know how heartbreaking it is to go to an 'Apostolic Pentecostal' meeting and see things that I've spent a lot of time preaching and teaching my people the dangers of.

I'm not a 'clothesline' preacher but a 'commitment' preacher without a doubt. I think that really living for God takes some spiritual disciplines. When I came to my Church there was less than 50 people. Today there are many times over that. The VAST MAJORITY of them are people I've won to the Lord either personally or through the ministry of our Church.

I've seen them go from drunkards, whores, prostitutes, spouse abusers, drug addicts and pushers to every other sad walk of life into absolutely wonderful Saints that you would NEVER imagine lived the life some of them lived.

I was the 'husbandman'.
I was the 'shepherd'.
I was the 'keeper of the vineyard'.
I was the 'friend of the bridegroom'.
I was the 'Man of God'.

I wept with them until the victory.
I rejoiced with them over clean drug tests.
I shouted with them over salvaged marriages.
I cried with them over the consequences of past sins.
I prayed with them over bitter heartaches.
I encouraged them through vicious temptations.

I SAW THEM COME OUT VICTORIOUS!

And yet when I take them to certain meetings (I still DO take them, however) I'm always amazed at the number of people who say, "Pastor, I thought Pentecostals didn't.... I thought everyone who had truth stopped..." on and on I could go. We most always have 'new converts' that find themselves confused by these things.

Yet, I've seen young people walk out of my Church to shack up with young men in other so called 'Apostolic' Churches... without ever 'backsliding'!

I've seen them start dating young people from other so called 'Apostolic' Churches and suddenly start questioning whether Baptism in Jesus Name is really all that important. "That Pastor says it's just a sign that doesn't mean all that much."

I've seen them okay 'social drinking' in other 'Apostolic' environments and when my Saints go to their family's home (who go to the 'social drinking' Church) they get to sit there with their children and watch folks from the other 'church' drink alcoholic beverages.

Here is where I stand: I'm not for separating families. That's dumb. I am, however, for maintaining a good, clean, Godly fellowship with other Pentecostal Churches who have true Apostolic values and disciplines of the heart.

I won these folks. Why in the Name of God wouldn't I want to protect them?!?!?

And if I can do it in such a way that I can have Godly fellowship with strong Churches while maintaining civility with others who don't see everything 'eye to eye' with me... why wouldn't I want to do it?

I understand the longing for fellowship that doesn't create unholy questions in the minds of people I bled for.