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  #11  
Old 09-10-2008, 07:41 PM
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Re: New Birth Prior to Pentecost

DeltaGuitar.......
some........not many......but some will tell you that when Jesus said of the water and the spirit...

water means a "natural" birth...such as when a woman's water breaks at the time of giving birth

spirit means a "spiritual" birth

This is NOT the popular teaching by either trinitarians or oneness.

I think you have to look at the context of the whole story of Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus and not just two or three verses..this conversation continues on past verse 16, where he said "For God so loved the world, that he sent his Son, that whosoever believe on him might have eternal life".......that is a "new covenant" verse......

IMO the whole conversation talks about the "new covenant"
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  #12  
Old 09-10-2008, 07:49 PM
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Re: New Birth Prior to Pentecost

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Originally Posted by deltaguitar View Post
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

I was always taught growing up that to be born of the water meant baptism and born of spirit meant getting the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. Of course, the teaching was that this could only happen after the day of Pentecost that is mentioned in Acts 2:38.

Ok, my question is, could people have been born again prior to Pentecost? If so, then this puts a huge hole in the argument that born of water is baptism and born of spirit is talking about speaking in tongues.

First, the scripture says that “no one can enter the kingdom . . . unless he is born of water and spirit”. It doesn’t say, those after Pentecost or those under the new covenant, it says “no one”. Well, if Jesus was talking about everyone in history then how could folks be baptized in Jesus name and receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost if the day of Pentecost hadn’t yet come.
Secondly, Jesus would not have told Nicodemus that he had to be born again if it wasn't even possible for Nicodemus to be born again at that time. Really, what if Nicodemus had died before he had a chance to be converted after Pentecost?

I don’t consider myself to have a great understanding about this but if it had to be possible to be born again before Pentecost then I don’t see how water baptism and speaking in tongues would have been what Jesus was talking about in John 3.

Anyone have any opinions?
Your argument is fallacious. Nobody argues being born of the Spirit is speaking in tongues.

Jesus came preaching the gospel of the kingdom. He ushered in a NEW covenant. He did not come to regurgitate what they've all already been doing.
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Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #13  
Old 09-10-2008, 08:15 PM
LUKE2447 LUKE2447 is offline
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Re: New Birth Prior to Pentecost

Sorry Scott this is totaly misunderstood..... Abraham's faith was considered a righteouss deed or response or as the NET "proof of genuine loyalty". His faith did not MAKE him righteouss. He was considered right because of his response was "to do what is right". When was this response? James tells us! When Abraham believed God and went to offer his son THUS God the scripture was fulfilled. Abraham could not receive the promise of covenant UNLESS he walked before God blameless. Gen 17:1 Thus Gen 15:6 is a narrative comment about the whole of events to come.

Faith is always a proper response to God's Word. IT is always a work. In the NT it is not different we respond to God's Word competely and our response is considered genuine loyalty or righteouss. Thus we respond to Repent(turn) and be baptized(united/converted)....... and you shall receive the HS!
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Old 09-10-2008, 09:14 PM
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Re: New Birth Prior to Pentecost

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Originally Posted by deltaguitar View Post
The scriputure says, "no one". It doesn't say old covenant or new covenant. So is the new birth something that only happens to Christians after the day of pentecostl?

10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 8:10-12 NKJV

Jesus said that many would come from the east and west (I assume He meant Gentiles) and would sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. That seems to say to me the Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were in the kingdom with neither water nor Spirit baptism.
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  #15  
Old 09-10-2008, 09:19 PM
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Re: New Birth Prior to Pentecost

I said in an earlier post that one of the factors that affects our view of just how and when a person is saved is our understanding of what the “water” is or of what the term “born of water” means in John 3:5.

For purposes of this post I am using the terms “born again” or “regenerated” and “saved” as being the same experience. This would be salvation according to the way I understand that it is presented in our New Testament. I’m using it in the sense that we have been saved from sin and we are currently saved. I am not using it in the sense that our salvation will not actually be completed until we are resurrected incorruptible and immortal.

There are not a whole lot of references to being born again in the Bible that I can think of right now. The primary passage is John 3:1-21 which is the classic story of Nicodemus who came to Jesus by night. 1 Peter 1:23 refers to a time in the past when we were “born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, by the word of God.” James 1:18 says “of his own will begat he us with the word of truth.” In Titus 3:5 Paul speaks of “the washing of regeneration” and in Gal 3:29 he says, “ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus” and follows that with a reference to our having been baptized into Christ (into the name of Christ according to the Syriac Bible) and having put on Christ. The Apostle John refers to us as “sons of God” (1 John 3:1-2), “children of God” (1 John 5:2) and as “born of God” (1 John 5:1, 4) plus other references in his epistle.

A few words about the classic passage on regeneration. John starts out by telling us about Nicodemus, a ruler (Sanhedrin member) and a Pharisee who came to Jesus by night. Jesus spoke these words to him, “Except a man be born again (or born anew or born from above), he cannot see (perceive, comprehend, experience) the kingdom of God” (verse 3). Nicodemus asks, “How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?” Jesus then answers this query as recorded in verses 5-8. “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus then asks another question, “How can these things be?” Jesus then gives an explanation which is found in verses 10-21. The account goes on. Jesus answered and said unto him, “Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”

Jesus said that there is a birth of water and a birth of Spirit. He also said that this new birth experience was something “that we (He and others at that time) do know, and that we have seen” (verse 11) so it was something that had already happened to some and had been experienced by some. Jesus also said that this rebirth was the result of believing in Him (verses 15-21). He compared it to the Israelites in the wilderness receiving new life by looking by faith at the brazen serpent which had been hung on a pole (Numbers 21:4-8).

Now, what about the “water” in verse 5?

I don’t know how many opinions there are about what the “water” is that is spoken of there. I know about several and I will list them below.

1. Some believe that “born of water’ refers to our first birth. In our mother’s womb we were carried in a sac of water. When we came into the world this water was spilled. A woman may refer to this by saying, “My water broke,” or “they (hospital workers) broke my water.” The fluid is some times called “amniotic fluid” but is generally referred to as water. Those who believe in this theory say that in verse 5, Jesus was answering Nicodemus’ question about being born when he is old and about entering into his mother’s womb again. Jesus was saying some thing like, “No, you don’t go back into the womb. Don’t confuse the two births. This is a second birth, a rebirth. The first birth was a birth of water but the second birth is a birth of the Spirit. The first birth was of the flesh and affects you physically but the second birth is a birth of the Spirit and affects your spirit.”

2. Some believe that the “water’ spoken of in John 3:5 is the “Word of God.” Both 1 Peter 1:23 and James 1:18 mention the word being part of the new birth process. Another verse used to support this is John 15:3 where Jesus said, “Now are ye clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.” Jesus is the vine and we are the branches and these branches are clean through the word. I think it was Bro. Gordon Magee that said Jesus was not referring to washing the branches with the word like water but was referring to pruning them with the penknife of the word. Another verse that is used to show that this water is the word is Eph 5:26 that is usually (mis)quoted as “that he might sanctify and cleanse it by the washing of the water of the word.” If you read the King James Bible it does not really say it that way.

3. Others believe that the water spoken of in verse 5 is the Spirit of God. God’s Spirit is referred to as water several places in the Bible. This is based on a rule called “Granville Sharp’s rule.” This rule states that “when you have two nouns, which are not proper names, and the two nouns are connected by the word "and," and the first noun has the article ("the") while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person.” This rule is some times invoked by Oneness teachers to show that phrases like “our God and Savior” or “the God and Father” both refer to the same person because there is no “the” in the Greek text in front of the second noun. I am not a Greek scholar. I don’t know if that applies here but some say it does and the “water and spirit” both refer to the same thing. The Amplified Bible offers as an alternate reading “except a man be born of water even the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Dr. Kenneth Wuest’s Expanded Translation renders verse 5 as “unless a person is born out of water as a source, even out of the Spirit as a source, he is not able to enter the kingdom of God.”

4. Another theory is that “born of water” refers to water baptism. The (Roman Catholic) Douay Bible has a note at John 3:5 which says, “By these words our Saviour hath declared the necessity of baptism: and by the word water it is evident that the application of it is necessary with the words (Matthew 28:9).” The Roman Catholics are not the only ones that believe this. It is also taught by some Protestants, by the Church of Christ (Campbellites) and by some Oneness Pentecostals. Another verse used to show that this is water baptism is Ezekiel 36:25-27 where God speaks of a time in the future when He will sprinkle Israel with clean water to cleanse them, give them a new heart, put a new Spirit within them, take out their heart of stone, and cause them to walk in His statutes and keep His judgments. Also cited is the old custom of Jews referring to Gentiles who had converted to Judaism and had gone through the mikveh cleansing as being “born of water.”

There may be other interpretations of what the water of John 3:5 means but these are some that I have heard. You may have heard others. You may believe one of the above or maybe none of the above. I just wanted to show that there are different ways that people look at John 3:5. I am not arguing in favor of any of these. I’m just placing them before you.
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  #16  
Old 09-10-2008, 09:23 PM
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Re: New Birth Prior to Pentecost

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Your argument is fallacious. Nobody argues being born of the Spirit is speaking in tongues.
...
Nobody argues that being born of the Spirit is speaking in tongues?

Lots of folks on this forum believe that being born of the Spirit is speaking in tongues.

Lots of folks on this forum believe the apostles were not saved until they spoke with tongues in Acts chapter 2.
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  #17  
Old 09-10-2008, 11:38 PM
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Re: New Birth Prior to Pentecost

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Originally Posted by Sam View Post
Nobody argues that being born of the Spirit is speaking in tongues?

Lots of folks on this forum believe that being born of the Spirit is speaking in tongues.

Lots of folks on this forum believe the apostles were not saved until they spoke with tongues in Acts chapter 2.
no being born of the Spirit is being FILLED or BAPTIZED with the Spirit. Speaking in tongues is what happens when someone is baptized with.

The fallacy you have there is that someone "could" have been born of the Spirit before Pentecost if we assume the thread's premise, but NOT have spoken in tongues and tongues STILL be the NT evidence someone was baptized with the Spirit.

As being born of Water is baptism then being born of the Spirit is also baptism...of the Spirit....not "speaking in tongues"
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #18  
Old 09-11-2008, 01:05 PM
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Re: New Birth Prior to Pentecost

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Your argument is fallacious. Nobody argues being born of the Spirit is speaking in tongues.

Jesus came preaching the gospel of the kingdom. He ushered in a NEW covenant. He did not come to regurgitate what they've all already been doing.
The premise is that born of the spirit according, to many Oneness Pentecostals, is accompanied by speaking in tongues. This occurred on the day of Pentecost. My initial post asks the questions; did the new birth happen prior to Pentecost? If so, then doesn't this cause a problem for the folks that say that born of the spirit is speaking about the "baptism of the holy ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues."
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Old 09-11-2008, 01:06 PM
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Re: New Birth Prior to Pentecost

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
no being born of the Spirit is being FILLED or BAPTIZED with the Spirit. Speaking in tongues is what happens when someone is baptized with.

The fallacy you have there is that someone "could" have been born of the Spirit before Pentecost if we assume the thread's premise, but NOT have spoken in tongues and tongues STILL be the NT evidence someone was baptized with the Spirit.

As being born of Water is baptism then being born of the Spirit is also baptism...of the Spirit....not "speaking in tongues"
Ok, then could people be baptized in the Holy Ghost before Pentecost.
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Old 09-11-2008, 01:13 PM
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Re: New Birth Prior to Pentecost

the cross separates the ot, fromt the nt, and the day of pentecost was the promised day the powere was sent to the church, therefore can rightly be interpreted as the kickoff of the new kingdom of god, as the church, dt
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