New Birth Prior to Pentecost

deltaguitar · #1 09-10-2008, 01:56 PM

4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

I was always taught growing up that to be born of the water meant baptism and born of spirit meant getting the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. Of course, the teaching was that this could only happen after the day of Pentecost that is mentioned in Acts 2:38.

Ok, my question is, could people have been born again prior to Pentecost? If so, then this puts a huge hole in the argument that born of water is baptism and born of spirit is talking about speaking in tongues.

First, the scripture says that “no one can enter the kingdom . . . unless he is born of water and spirit”. It doesn’t say, those after Pentecost or those under the new covenant, it says “no one”. Well, if Jesus was talking about everyone in history then how could folks be baptized in Jesus name and receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost if the day of Pentecost hadn’t yet come.
Secondly, Jesus would not have told Nicodemus that he had to be born again if it wasn't even possible for Nicodemus to be born again at that time. Really, what if Nicodemus had died before he had a chance to be converted after Pentecost?

I don’t consider myself to have a great understanding about this but if it had to be possible to be born again before Pentecost then I don’t see how water baptism and speaking in tongues would have been what Jesus was talking about in John 3.

Anyone have any opinions?

Scott Hutchinson · #2 09-10-2008, 02:02 PM

First the church started at Pentecost.Since we live this side of Calvary,then I would think we would see how people were added to the early church, and follow that message.
Saints before the church began were not under the church age if you will,yet many did experience forgiveness of sin,but the question for us is when did the church began,and what we must do to be added to the church ?

I say this in love without strive or contention,please understand I don't have all of the answers.

deltaguitar · #3 09-10-2008, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

First the church started at Pentecost.Since we live this side of Calvary,then I would think we would see how people were added to the early church, and follow that message.
Saints before the church began were not under the church age if you will,yet many did experience forgiveness of sin,but the question for us is when did the church began,and what we must do to be added to the church ?

I say this in love without strive or contention,please understand I don't have all of the answers.

I guess my thought is that the conversation between Nicodemus and Jesus was before Pentecost and is if really fair to link John 3 to Acts 2:38. If Christ was telling Nicodemus he had to be born again then how was he born again.

Scott Hutchinson · #4 09-10-2008, 02:14 PM

Jesus said the Kingdom of Heaven was near or at hand,so it seems to me and I could be mistaken that Jesus was given Nicodemus on how to get into The Kingdom Of God when it would begin.

Jesus did forgive folks of their sin,before Pentecost,but the question remains when did The Christian church begin ?to use the term dispensation,I understand before Pentecost was still under a different convenant with differing terms.

Of course I'm willing to hear a differing point of view.

#5 09-10-2008, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

I was always taught growing up that to be born of the water meant baptism and born of spirit meant getting the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. Of course, the teaching was that this could only happen after the day of Pentecost that is mentioned in Acts 2:38.

Ok, my question is, could people have been born again prior to Pentecost? If so, then this puts a huge hole in the argument that born of water is baptism and born of spirit is talking about speaking in tongues.

First, the scripture says that “no one can enter the kingdom . . . unless he is born of water and spirit”. It doesn’t say, those after Pentecost or those under the new covenant, it says “no one”. Well, if Jesus was talking about everyone in history then how could folks be baptized in Jesus name and receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost if the day of Pentecost hadn’t yet come.
Secondly, Jesus would not have told Nicodemus that he had to be born again if it wasn't even possible for Nicodemus to be born again at that time. Really, what if Nicodemus had died before he had a chance to be converted after Pentecost?

I don’t consider myself to have a great understanding about this but if it had to be possible to be born again before Pentecost then I don’t see how water baptism and speaking in tongues would have been what Jesus was talking about in John 3.

Anyone have any opinions?

Think about the theif on the cross. He hadn't been born again, yet Jesus told him that he'd see him in paradise (heaven). Because up until Pentecost, they were under the old covenant.

deltaguitar · #6 09-10-2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulkiewicz

Think about the theif on the cross. He hadn't been born again, yet Jesus told him that he'd see him in paradise (heaven). Because up until Pentecost, they were under the old covenant.

The scriputure says, "no one". It doesn't say old covenant or new covenant. So is the new birth something that only happens to Christians after the day of pentecostl?

deltaguitar · #7 09-10-2008, 04:55 PM

Well, I thought there would be more debate on this subject. Does anyone have any opinions on this?

nahkoe · #8 09-10-2008, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Well, I thought there would be more debate on this subject. Does anyone have any opinions on this?

I have plenty.

But I'm in no way qualified to really dig into this here. lol

Scott Hutchinson · #9 09-10-2008, 07:04 PM

Dig in Nahkoe,your opinion has a right to be heard.

Scott Hutchinson · #10 09-10-2008, 07:13 PM

People in the ot.did receive justification by faith,like Abraham who believed in The Lord and it was counted unto Him for righteousness,however in The NT. Peter was given the keys of the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus said in MATTHEW I will build my church,not I am building my church.

If about 3 thousand souls were added to the church at Pentecost what plan of salvation did they follow to be added to the church ?