Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellion?

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by Charnock

Should every pastor and church be connected to a denomination?

Can there be true oversight without denominational affiliation?

Are independent churches operating in rebellion?

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Charnock, since you asked those questions, tell us...

What do YOU think?

I believe there is some good in denominational affiliation. Foremost being benefits like fellowship, accountability, tradition and ministerial presbytery. Denominations also pare down doctrinal ambiguity in the local assembly. The general population needs only look at a local church's denominational affiliation in order to discern what to expect when attending.

However, I believe there is just as much good in nondenominational assemblies. Autonomy does not necessarily imply lack of oversight. Many nondenominational churches have very strong accountability systems. The lack of an external presbytery can be a blessing as well. This frees the nondenominational church to be individualistic, unique and completely homogenous.

Abuse is possible whether a church is tied to a denomination or not, and often the denomination itself is abusive. Further, denominations can tax the local assembly into oblivion. I have seen this happen on many occasions within the United Methodist Church. Invariably local churches end up serving the bureaucracy of the denomination instead of the denomination serving the local church.

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by Charnock

Should every pastor and church be connected to a denomination?

Can there be true oversight without denominational affiliation?

Are independent churches operating in rebellion?

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Charnock, since you asked those questions, tell us...

What do YOU think?

Originally Posted by Charnock

I believe there is some good in denominational affiliation. Foremost being benefits like fellowship, accountability, tradition and ministerial presbytery. Denominations also pare down doctrinal ambiguity in the local assembly. The general population needs only look at a local church's denominational affiliation in order to discern what to expect when attending.

However, I believe there is just as much good in nondenominational assemblies. Autonomy does not necessarily imply lack of oversight. Many nondenominational churches have very strong accountability systems. The lack of an external presbytery can be a blessing as well. This frees the nondenominational church to be individualistic, unique and completely homogenous.

Abuse is possible whether a church is tied to a denomination or not, and often the denomination itself is abusive. Further, denominations can tax the local assembly into oblivion. I have seen this happen on many occasions within the United Methodist Church. Invariably local churches end up serving the bureaucracy of the denomination instead of the denomination serving the local church.

Was the early church set up as an organization, or as autonomous assemblies?

What of Jesus' communication to the seven churches in Asia Minor (Revelation 1-3)? He addressed each church individually, realizing that churches are defined by geography, ethnicity, secular government and spiritual dominions.

[JaneEyre]

Originally Posted by Charnock

Was the early church set up as an organization, or as autonomous assemblies?

What of Jesus' communication to the seven churches in Asia Minor (Revelation 1-3)? He addressed each church individually, realizing that churches are defined by geography, ethnicity, secular government and spiritual dominions.

I don't recall an organization or denomination....I know it is probably hard for some to believe that a group of believers could flourish and sustain fellowship without a Mother Ship........

[Sister Alvear]

Prov. 15:22 comes to my mind...


Without consultation, plans are frustrated, But with many counselors they succeed.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Without advice plans go wrong, but with many advisers they succeed.

King James Bible
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

American King James Version
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

American Standard Version
Where there is no counsel, purposes are disappointed; But in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

Bible in Basic English
Where there are no wise suggestions, purposes come to nothing; but by a number of wise guides they are made certain.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Designs are brought to nothing where there is no counsel: but where there are many counsellors, they are established.

Darby Bible Translation
Without counsel purposes are disappointed; but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

English Revised Version
Where there is no counsel, purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

Webster's Bible Translation
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counselors they are established.

World English Bible
Where there is no counsel, plans fail; but in a multitude of counselors they are established.

While a person needs counselors they also need freedom to obey the Lord...putting the two together is often hard!

[All4one]

John the baptist was the greatest of all prophets, they probably called him rebellious.

[Charnock]

When speaking of the church, we refer to it in either the local or universal sense. From looking at the biblical record, we find that local churches were organized to be independent from each other (1 Peter 5:1-3), answering only to Jesus, the Head of the church (Ephesians 1:22-23). In passages where the universal church is under discussion (Ephesians 5:23-27), scripture is silent concerning any formal organization. The Lord’s church has been organized without earthly headquarters and bureaucracies. Jesus is the head of the church and elders in local congregations answer directly to Him.

http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-local...sing-error.htm

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Charnock

When speaking of the church, we refer to it in either the local or universal sense. From looking at the biblical record, we find that local churches were organized to be independent from each other (1 Peter 5:1-3), answering only to Jesus, the Head of the church (Ephesians 1:22-23). In passages where the universal church is under discussion (Ephesians 5:23-27), scripture is silent concerning any formal organization. The Lord’s church has been organized without earthly headquarters and bureaucracies. Jesus is the head of the church and elders in local congregations answer directly to Him.

http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-local...sing-error.htm

BINGO! We got a winnner folks!

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by Charnock

When speaking of the church, we refer to it in either the local or universal sense. From looking at the biblical record, we find that local churches were organized to be independent from each other (1 Peter 5:1-3), answering only to Jesus, the Head of the church (Ephesians 1:22-23). In passages where the universal church is under discussion (Ephesians 5:23-27), scripture is silent concerning any formal organization. The Lord’s church has been organized without earthly headquarters and bureaucracies. Jesus is the head of the church and elders in local congregations answer directly to Him.

http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-local...sing-error.htm

I don't read it in the bible that way.

I read that the Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles and that what feel on him daily was the care of all the churches,

1Co 4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timothy, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

The way I read it is that Paul had authority over all the Gentile churches and set things in order.

I believe the first pastors of the first churches were the original apostles. Afterwards elders and/or/including a Pastor were to be ordained. Once a pastor could prove that he could look after the church, then an apostle could leave and go elsewhere.

The scripture also talks about governments and in the context of administrations in the gifts of the Spirit, lists a hierarchy...

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

I believe the 5 fold ministry listed in Ephesian 4:11 along with the scripture above shows that apostles are first, then prophets come second, and that evangelists, pastors, and teachers all come afterwards under the general category of teachers.

If one of the pastors couldn't handle a situation in their church, they could appeal to the apostle Paul and in fact sometimes Paul had to deal with specific situations in the churches.

That's how I see it, but if I'm wrong perhaps someone could correct me with sound doctrine.

[Charnock]

God's Wisdom Shown In Local Autonomy


We can easily see the wisdom of God manifested in the autonomy of the local church. If all the congregations were joined by some sort of "inter-congregational alliance" or "organizational federation," the dangers of apostasy would be greatly increased. If one congregation in the "alliance" should turn to apostasy, there would be a distinct danger of every other congregation in the "alliance" becoming affected. Or if one group of elders were given the right to oversee many congregations, and they should go into apostasy, every congregation under their oversight would likely be led into the same apostasy. But when each congregation is an independent and autonomous body this is not true. One congregation or one group of elders may go into apostasy without affecting all of the others. Any congregation, of course, through false teaching, may be led into apostasy, but we should recognize and respect the greater degree of safety that is found in the autonomy and independence of the local church. God arranged it that way. Let us strive to keep it that way. Man's "brotherhood projects" are not an improvement upon the divine system of operation.

www.watchmanmag.com/0406/040603.htm

[Charnock]

The autonomy of every local Christian Church is a clear and vital principle of Scripture. Unfortunately, it is a truth which seems to be now widely ignored with much damage resulting.

In the earliest days of Christianity there were a few specially chosen men who were given certain "apostolic authority" by the Lord. They served the Lord before the New Testament was given. As they passed on, they left behind a body of inspired truth called "the apostle's doctrine." A part of which is a clear mandate for local church autonomy. It was made clear that there is to be no level of human authority between the Lord and the local church elders.

Anywhere, or if by any means, human authority is superimposed upon the government of the local church, or used in such a manner as to provide a humanly co-ordinated government between local churches, this principle is violated. Whether the transgression is on a national or international scale it makes no difference. Or, in a more subtle way, if "circles of fellowship" or inter-church ties are cultivated and enforced by influential leaders, the error and resulting damage is disastrously the same. A sect is formed. There is a division of Christian testimony and a rallying around certain ideals or concepts other than the Word of God allows.

Nowhere is it taught in Scripture that all Christian churches are to be uniform. They are all under the same Divine headship. They are all to conform to the same perfect Word. Beyond that they express local individuality and are answerable only to the Lord Himself.

The early churches in Caesarea, Ephesus, Corinth and Rome, for example were clearly different. Each had a distinct character fashioned no doubt by its ethnic composition, local conditions and customs etc. in terms of those differences no one of them was more "right" then the others. There was no commandment that they should all meet in the same sort of building, be known by the same human name, dress in a certain fashion or have a certain seating arrangement. Such matters, and many more, were left to the discretion and wisdom of the local elders.

Sectarianism comes from human presumption and results in human pride. It is born when some believers conclude that they should separate themselves from some of the Lord's people over some issue upon which the Scriptures give no direction. Having therefore committed the prior sin of the Corinthians - creating divisions - they proceed naturally to the same succession of errors as plagued that early church. The carnality that accompanies division (I Cor. 3:1-7); the pride of being different from others (4:7); being puffed up with sectarian ideology instead of mourning over unjudged sin (ch. 5). This leads inevitably to internal strife (ch. 6) until the whole system winds up as a house divided against itself. The original sin of division when unjudged, perpetuates itself into more strife, more bickering, still more divisions and of course, more trouble.

It is no wonder that the saddest examples of ecclesiastical weakness are found today amongst those who most prided themselves in the notion that by this kind of division they would gain greater heights of spirituality. It is surely time to deal courageously with this basic error and condemn it wherever we find it and to return to follow the simple principles of New Testament church autonomy.

Christ the only Head. (Eph. 1:20-23, 5:23). He is the Owner, the Master and Director of each and every component of the Christian church. His Word is the only Oracle that speaks with divine authority throughout the Church. The Word of God reveals no other authority within the Church that applies to more than a single local church.

If a certain thing is done or a given issue is resolved a certain way in one church, that is not reason itself to apply the same decisions in another local church, unless there is a clear scriptural mandate touching on that matter.

Christ is the only inter-church link. Note carefully Rev. ch. 1. There the Lord is seen moving in the midst of the lampstands. Those seven lampstands bore no formal relationship to one another except through Him. Here is a lesson we need to learn afresh. Between the churches there is found no horizontal (human) linkage. Their relationship with each other was only via the vertical linkage that binds each to the One who is in their midst.

This clarifies the Biblical distinction between division and separation. Separation is that good and scriptural practice which sets apart all the Lord's people to Himself. Division is the sinful practice that challenges His Lordship amongst His own and seeks to disrupt their fellowship with one another through Him by introducing fragile horizontal relationships.

personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/familiaknott/Autonomy.htm