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  #11  
Old 05-14-2007, 03:14 PM
Chan
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Originally Posted by Thad View Post
“Christ, according to the faith, is the second person in the Trinity, the Father being the first and the Holy Ghost the third. Each of these persons is God. Christ is his own father and his own son. The Holy Ghost is neither father nor son, but both. The son was begotten by the father, but existed before he was begotten--just the same before as after. . . .

“So, it is declared that the Father is God, and the Son God, and the Holy Ghost God, and that these three Gods make one God.

“According to the celestial multiplication table, once one is three, and three times one is one, and according to heavenly subtraction, if we take two from three, three are left. The addition is equally peculiar, if we add two to one, we have but one. . . .

“Nothing ever was, nothing ever can be more perfectly idiotic and absurd than the dogma of the Trinity.”

-- Robert G. Ingersoll (1833-1899), "The Trinity" (from "The Foundations of Faith," The Works of Ingersoll).

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I've never heard of this guy and what he wrote is utter nonsense.
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  #12  
Old 05-14-2007, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Chan View Post
I've never heard of this guy and what he wrote is utter nonsense.
he does make a mockery of the trinity.... which of course us OPs would never do! hee hee.
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  #13  
Old 05-14-2007, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ferd View Post
he does make a mockery of the trinity.... which of course us OPs would never do! hee hee.
It sounds nearly as contorted as the English translations of the so-called "Athanasian Creed" (which had nothing whatsoever to do with Athanasius):


1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. 44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
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  #14  
Old 05-14-2007, 04:28 PM
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I notice no one has answerd by question as to who this Ingersoll guy is.

This may be one of those straw men people pull. It it is I guarantee you one can find early 20th century writings by a few "Oneness" folks that don't reflect mainstream Oneness theology today and are not credible .

You can always find fringe folks in any belief system who do not represent the majority or "official" view.
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  #15  
Old 05-14-2007, 05:24 PM
Carpenter Carpenter is offline
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Originally Posted by CC1 View Post
Who is this Ingersoll guy? I notice he has been dead for over 100 years. Is he considered a mainstream trinitarian theologan or some oddball somebody dug up to prove a point?
He was Aceaton assistant pastor for almost 15 years when Aceaton pastored in Tombstone.


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  #16  
Old 05-14-2007, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpenter View Post
He was Aceaton assistant pastor for almost 15 years when Aceaton pastored in Tombstone.


Oh! So someone from Acteon's middle aged years?
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  #17  
Old 05-14-2007, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad View Post
“Christ, according to the faith, is the second person in the Trinity, the Father being the first and the Holy Ghost the third. Each of these persons is God. Christ is his own father and his own son. The Holy Ghost is neither father nor son, but both. The son was begotten by the father, but existed before he was begotten--just the same before as after. . . .

“So, it is declared that the Father is God, and the Son God, and the Holy Ghost God, and that these three Gods make one God.

“According to the celestial multiplication table, once one is three, and three times one is one, and according to heavenly subtraction, if we take two from three, three are left. The addition is equally peculiar, if we add two to one, we have but one. . . .

“Nothing ever was, nothing ever can be more perfectly idiotic and absurd than the dogma of the Trinity.”

-- Robert G. Ingersoll (1833-1899), "The Trinity" (from "The Foundations of Faith," The Works of Ingersoll).

LINK
Wow...I wish I had met him so I could say I finally met the most confused Trinitarian on the face of the planet
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  #18  
Old 05-14-2007, 07:59 PM
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His father was a Presbyterian minister who changed congregations often

Politically, he allied with the Republicans, the party of Lincoln and in those days the voice of progressivism.

He bitterly opposed the Religious Right of his day. He was an early popularizer of Charles Darwin and a tireless advocate of science and reason. More, he argued for the rights of women and African-Americans.
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index...rsoll&page=bio
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  #19  
Old 05-14-2007, 08:01 PM
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He was supposedly an agnostic
http://www.bigeye.com/rgicreed.htm
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  #20  
Old 05-14-2007, 09:17 PM
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So why did Thad dig up some screwball guy from the 1800's who doesn't even represent the orthodox view of the trinity?

Let me guess. Thad probably got it from some Oneness Pentecostal preacher who uses quotes from this guy to mischaracterize what trinitarians believe.

Thaddy, hello, are you there?
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