Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Rico

Who said the NT went into effect when Jesus died. Him dying isn't the Gospel. The Gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

Right, Actually his blood was necessary, but the covenant was not till Jesus sat on the right hand of the Father

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Right, Actually his blood was necessary, but the covenant was not till Jesus sat on the right hand of the Father

Time out ... Rico believes it was at his Resurrection ... and you agreed?

Was this immediately out of the tomb?... are you stating that He sat on the right hand of the Father upon his initial resurrection ... or are you speaking of His ascension, Praxeas?

I know some believe he resurrected and went to heaven for a moment to present His sacrifice ... in between his apparition to Mary and Thomas??

Some clarification ... are you asserting that the New Covenant goes into effect ... at His ascension? Glorification? Exaltation? Pre-Pentecost?

How does your view apply to the thief???

[James Griffin]

Dan, I was going to wait until morning and post a reasonably detailed response, but this is actually does not require that. In addressing the thief on the cross and whether saved under the law (OT) or gospel (NT).

The New Covenant could not exist without the gospel, and the gospel did not exist until the resurrection of Christ.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Time out ... Rico believes it was at his Resurrection ... and you agreed?

Was this immediately out of the tomb?... are you stating that He sat on the right hand of the Father upon his initial resurrection ... or are you speaking of His ascension, Praxeas?

I know some believe he resurrected and went to heaven for a moment to present His sacrifice ... in between his apparition to Mary and Thomas??

Some clarification ... are you asserting that the New Covenant goes into effect ... at His ascension? Glorification? Exaltation? Pre-Pentecost?

How does your view apply to the thief???

I believe part of the covenant includes Jesus sitting on the throne and ruling. There would be no covenant if Jesus died. His blood ratifies it like all others covenants but was not active until Jesus sits down on the right hand of power. This shows his eternal Priesthood which is essential as part of the covenant.

So it was ratified at his death but not put into place until he ascended and sat next to the Father. I could be wrong but part of the element of the covenant was his eternal priesthood

[SDG]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

Dan, I was going to wait until morning and post a reasonably detailed response, but this is actually does not require that. In addressing the thief on the cross and whether saved under the law (OT) or gospel (NT).

The New Covenant could not exist without the gospel, and the gospel did not exist until the resurrection of Christ.

This is Rico's position as of right now ... not St. Matt's ... DWW's .. Redmann's ... Waiting on Praxeas ... he apparently doesn't either.

So was the thief saved under the Old Covenant ... ? Why/how do you say so ...?

I know we've discussed the "in the mind of God" versus the necessity of the acts to happen for legal purposes ....

Care to explain why both the death and resurrection must occur for the New Covenant to be in effect? Again any ties you can bring in to the thief would be helpful.

Scripture would be vital.

[Praxeas]

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having a high priest over the house of God;

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I believe part of the covenant includes Jesus sitting on the throne and ruling. There would be no covenant if Jesus died. His blood ratifies it like all others covenants but was not active until Jesus sits down on the right hand of power. This shows his eternal Priesthood which is essential as part of the covenant.

So it was ratified at his death but not put into place until he ascended and sat next to the Father. I could be wrong but part of the element of the covenant was his eternal priesthood

So this would be at his exaltation ...correct ... after his ascension? How would you term it?

Do you have scripture to substantiate the eternal Priesthood aspect of your argument?

This would differ from saying it was in effect immediately after his resurrection ... I believe ... and prior to Pentecost.

Thoughts on the thief?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having a high priest over the house of God;

Bump and more
Heb 7:18 On the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness
Heb 7:19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb 7:20 And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath,
Heb 7:21 but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, 'You are a priest forever.'"
Heb 7:22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
Heb 7:23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office,
Heb 7:24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.
Heb 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.
Heb 7:27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

So this would be at his exaltation ...correct ... after his ascension? How would you term it?

Do you have scripture to substantiate the eternal Priesthood aspect of your argument?

This would differ from saying it was in effect immediately after his resurrection ... I believe ... and prior to Pentecost.

Thoughts on the thief?

The thief was saved by faith in Christ apart from the works of the Law

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The thief was saved by faith in Christ apart from the works of the Law

Thus was not saved by the Old Covenant?