Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Sanctuary > Deep Waters
Facebook

Notices

Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 06-06-2007, 08:25 PM
Scott Hutchinson's Avatar
Scott Hutchinson Scott Hutchinson is offline
Resident PeaceMaker


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Jackson,AL.
Posts: 16,548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berkeley View Post
Right. Fully man, fully God.
That's the way I have taught it.
__________________
People who are always looking for fault,can find it easily all they have to do,is look into their mirror.
There they can find plenty of fault.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-06-2007, 08:30 PM
TalkLady TalkLady is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 1,315
I think it means that he took ALL the sins from the beginning of Time until the end of Time upon Himself as our sacrifice. ....That He felt the weight and suffering of those sins which must have hurt Him more than the nails in His hands and feet. This would not imply guilt...God is perfect, but in His flesh he bore/became sin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson View Post
Does this mean That Jesus become a sin -offering for us ,or did He actually become sin ? If Jesus became Sin would not that imply guilt ?
Also due to the virgin birth He had no falled Adamic sinful nature.
The animals in the OT. were offered as sin -offerings but they themselves did not become sin in their flesh.
__________________
God is so good!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-06-2007, 08:30 PM
berkeley berkeley is offline
Saved & Shaved


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SOUTH ZION
Posts: 10,795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson View Post
That's the way I have taught it.
Most men that I have heard try to explain "oneness" are Nestorian in their approach.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-06-2007, 08:31 PM
Scott Hutchinson's Avatar
Scott Hutchinson Scott Hutchinson is offline
Resident PeaceMaker


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Jackson,AL.
Posts: 16,548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berkeley View Post
Most men that I have heard try to explain "oneness" are Nestorian in their approach.
What is Nestorian clue me in as I'm not sure who this cat was ?
__________________
People who are always looking for fault,can find it easily all they have to do,is look into their mirror.
There they can find plenty of fault.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-06-2007, 08:32 PM
Praxeas's Avatar
Praxeas Praxeas is offline
Go Dodgers!


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson View Post
Made might imply being a created being to some folks like the JWs.Whereas being borned or begotten would prove the virgin birth.
It does not matter. The bible says Made. BTW the JWs only believe Jesus was created as an angel PRIOR to his being born. How was he made? He was made by being born. It's not semantically correct to some how disassociate the word made with born or begotten. When you were conceived, you were made.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-06-2007, 08:33 PM
Praxeas's Avatar
Praxeas Praxeas is offline
Go Dodgers!


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson View Post
Next question did Jesus Christ become sin on the cross ,or He was just an offering for sin ?
He became a sin offering on the cross. You can't become Sin..that is like someone becoming repentance or someone becoming theft. Did Jesus become a sinner on the cross? No. He did no sin
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-06-2007, 08:34 PM
berkeley berkeley is offline
Saved & Shaved


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SOUTH ZION
Posts: 10,795
Dulle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson View Post
What is Nestorian clue me in as I'm not sure who this cat was ?
Nestorianism's insistence on the separate natures in Christ fails to provide a satisfactory explanation as to the sense in which Jesus can be spoken of in the Scripture as one person, rather than two. Jesus always speaks of Himself, and is spoken of by others in the singular, not the plural as we would expect if there are two separate persons in one body. Neither can Nestorianism provide an adequate explanation as to how it can be said that the logos became flesh if Christ's divine nature is separate from His human nature. Finally, Nestorianism's portrait of separate natures connected only by will displaces the idea of a true incarnation of God, denegrating it to a mere possession of Jesus' human body. If there is no essential, metaphysical unity between Christ's deity and humanity then Christ cannot be considered God anymore than Spirit-filled believers can be considered God. The difference between the Nestorian Jesus and all other believers is limited only by the fact that Jesus is filled with the Spirit in a special way, and was conceived miraculously.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-06-2007, 08:34 PM
Scott Hutchinson's Avatar
Scott Hutchinson Scott Hutchinson is offline
Resident PeaceMaker


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Jackson,AL.
Posts: 16,548
Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkLady View Post
I think it means that he took ALL the sins from the beginning of Time until the end of Time upon Himself as our sacrifice. ....That He felt the weight and suffering of those sins which must have hurt Him more than the nails in His hands and feet. This would not imply guilt...God is perfect, but in His flesh he bore/became sin.
Well basically we rest in the fact that due to Jesus's vicarious sacrifce at calvary ,we can have forgiveness of sin due to His shed blood.
__________________
People who are always looking for fault,can find it easily all they have to do,is look into their mirror.
There they can find plenty of fault.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-06-2007, 08:35 PM
Scott Hutchinson's Avatar
Scott Hutchinson Scott Hutchinson is offline
Resident PeaceMaker


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Jackson,AL.
Posts: 16,548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
It does not matter. The bible says Made. BTW the JWs only believe Jesus was created as an angel PRIOR to his being born. How was he made? He was made by being born. It's not semantically correct to some how disassociate the word made with born or begotten. When you were conceived, you were made.
Ok I agree.
__________________
People who are always looking for fault,can find it easily all they have to do,is look into their mirror.
There they can find plenty of fault.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-06-2007, 08:37 PM
Praxeas's Avatar
Praxeas Praxeas is offline
Go Dodgers!


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson View Post
Made means to become so the Lord became Humanity through the virgin birth without dimishing His divinity or Godhood.
A.T. Robertson

He made to be sin (hamartian epoiēsen). The words “to be” are not in the Greek. “Sin” here is the substantive, not the verb. God “treated as sin” the one “who knew no sin.” But he knew the contradiction of sinners (Heb_12:3). We may not dare to probe too far into the mystery of Christ’s suffering on the Cross, but this fact throws some light on the tragic cry of Jesus just before he died: “My God, My God, why didst thou forsake me?” (Mat_27:46).

Vincents Word Studies
Compare a curse, Gal_3:13. Not a sin-offering, nor a sinner, but the representative of sin. On Him, representatively, fell the collective consequence of sin, in His enduring “the contradiction of sinners against Himself” (Heb_12:3), in His agony in the garden, and in His death on the cross.

Gill
2Co 5:21 - For he hath made him to be sin for us,.... Christ was made of a woman, took flesh of a sinful woman; though the flesh he took of her was not sinful, being sanctified by the Spirit of God, the former of Christ's human nature: however, he appeared "in the likeness of sinful flesh"; being attended with infirmities, the effects of sin, though sinless; and he was traduced by men as a sinner, and treated as such. Moreover, he was made a sacrifice for sin, in order to make expiation and atonement for it; so the Hebrew word חטאה signifies both sin and a sin offering; see Psa_40:6 and so αμαρτια, Rom_8:3. But besides all this, he was made sin itself by imputation; the sins of all his people were transferred unto him, laid upon him, and placed to his account; he sustained their persons, and bore their sins; and having them upon him, and being chargeable with, and answerable for them, he was treated by the justice of God as if he had been not only a sinner, but a mass of sin; for to be made sin, is a stronger expression than to be made a sinner: but now that this may appear to be only by imputation, and that none may conclude from hence that he was really and actually a sinner, or in himself so, it is said he was "made sin"; he did not become sin, or a sinner, through any sinful act of his own, but through his Father's act of imputation, to which he agreed; for it was "he" that made him sin: it is not said that men made him sin; not but that they traduced him as a sinner, pretended they knew he was one, and arraigned him at Pilate's bar as such; nor is he said to make himself so, though he readily engaged to be the surety of his people, and voluntarily took upon him their sins, and gave himself an offering for them; but he, his Father, is said to make him sin; it was he that "laid", or "made to meet" on him, the iniquity of us all; it was he that made his soul an offering for sin, and delivered him up into the hands of justice, and to death, and that "for us", in "our" room and stead, to bear the punishment of sin, and make satisfaction and atonement for it; of which he was capable, and for which he was greatly qualified: f

Barnes
For he hath made him to be sin for us - The Greek here is, ‘for him who knew no sin, he hath made sin, or a sin-offering for us.’ The design of this very important verse is, to urge the strongest possible reason for being reconciled to God. This is implied in the word (γὰρ gar) “for.” Paul might have urged other arguments, and presented other strong considerations. But he chooses to present this fact, that Christ has been made sin for us, as embodying and concentrating all. It is the most affecting of all arguments; it is the one that is likely to prove most effectual. It is not indeed improper to urge on people every other consideration to induce them to be reconciled to God. It is not improper to appeal to them by the conviction of duty; to appeal to their reason and conscience; to remind them of the claims, the power, the goodness, and the fear of the Creator; to remind them of the awful consequences of a continued hostility to God; to persuade them by the hope of heaven, and by the fear of hell 2Co_5:1 l to become his friends: but, after all, the strongest argument, and that which is most adapted to melt the soul, is the fact that the Son of God has become incarnate for our sins, and has suffered and died in our stead. When all other appeals fail this is effectual; and this is in fact the strong argument by which the mass of those who become Christians are induced to abandon their opposition and to become reconciled to God.
To be sin - The words ‘to be’ are not in the original. Literally, it is, ‘he has made him sin, or a sin-offering’ ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν hamartian epoiēsen . But what is meant by this? What is the exact idea which the apostle intended to convey? I answer, it cannot be:
(1) That he was literally sin in the abstract, or sin as such. No one can pretend this. The expression must be, therefore, in some sense, figurative. Nor,
(2) Can it mean that he was a sinner, for it is said in immediate connection that he “knew no sin,” and it is everywhere said that he was holy, harmless, undefiled. Nor,
(3) Can it mean that he was, in any proper sense of the word, guilty, for no one is truly guilty who is not personally a transgressor of the Law; and if he was, in any proper sense, guilty, then he deserved to die, and his death could have no more merit than that of any other guilty being; and if he was properly guilty it would make no difference in this respect whether it was by his own fault or by imputation: a guilty being deserves to be punished; and where there is desert of punishment there can be no merit in sufferings.
But all such views as go to make the Holy Redeemer a sinner, or guilty, or deserving of the sufferings which he endured, border on blasphemy, and are abhorrent to the whole strain of the Scriptures. In no form, in no sense possible, is it to be maintained that the Lord Jesus was sinful or guilty. It is a corner stone of the whole system of religion, that in all conceivable senses of the expression he was holy, and pure, and the object of the divine approbation. And every view which fairly leads to the statement that he was in any sense guilty, or which implies that he deserved to die, is “prima facie” a false view, and should be at once abandoned. But,
(4) If the declaration that he was made “sin” (ἁμαρτίαν hamartian) does not mean that he was sin itself, or a sinner, or guilty, then it must mean that he was a sin-offering - an offering or a sacrifice for sin; and this is the interpretation which is now generally adopted by expositors; or it must be taken as an abstract for the concrete, and mean that God treated him as if he were a sinner. The former interpretation, that it means that God made him a sin-offering, is adopted by Whitby, Doddridge, Macknight, Rosenmuller, and others; the latter, that it means that God treated him as a sinner, is adopted by Vorstius, Schoettgen, Robinson (Lexicon), Dr. Bull, and others. There are many passages in the Old Testament where the word “sin” (ἁμαρτία hamartia) is used in the sense of sin-offering, or a sacrifice for sin. Thus, Hos_4:8, “They eat up the sin of my people;” that is, the sin-offerings; see Eze_43:22, Eze_43:25; Eze_44:29; Eze_45:22-23, Eze_45:25.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Where did this whole "body guard" thing come from for ministers? ManOfWord Fellowship Hall 100 06-05-2007 11:38 AM
Local Church BODY Steve Epley Deep Waters 153 04-20-2007 04:32 PM
Role of Church Body in our Personal Struggles... whollyHis Deep Waters 24 02-20-2007 09:39 AM
President's Day Sale at Bath & Body Works Tina The Shopping Mall 0 02-18-2007 04:44 PM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.