Holiness?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

So in a very real way, we do practice the Bible to be holy (separate).

I would rephrase that,m according to scripture and say we practice the bible to ACT holy. But we already are holy in status and position by God's work alone.

I am not saying to NOT ACT holy. I am saying HOLINESS simply means BELONGING TO SOMEONE. And God's salvation work caused us to belong to Him, not our work. But we need to ACT holy now. Even that, though must be by empowerment of the Spirit.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Rev

Mostly but not totally. We cannot make our selves holy as you said, but after we become holy through Christ we can make ourselves transgressors again.

EXACTLY!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by dthomas

When you are in a right relationship with God you are washed, you are cleansed, and holy before God. The spirit of God operating in your life will cause certain changes to occur in your life. They include a change in your attitudes, a love for people, a Christ-like spirit, and yes - changes in your dress and appearance. All of these changes are due to Christ living in your life. Should worldly attitudes and carnality begin to creep back in, these influences will manifest themselves, and rob your holiness. You are not automatically holy because of an experience with God. You must 'die daily', as the Apostle Paul said, to prevent carnality and self from robbing your holiness. Holiness is an active pursuit, not a concept that we are endowed with because of a single experience.

Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Aside from what I believe is a distortion of "I die daily" (which was actually talking about physical threats to Paul's life and not denying self by spiritually dying, since we died ONCE with Christ already), here are my thoughts on your post.

We are automatically holy because of an experience with God of new birth. New birth MAKES US HOLY. We are in that second separated from the world by a work of God, and are then His children. That is HOLINESS. Being HIS. Period. But HOLY BEHAVIOUR must occur afterwards. True holiness is present when behaviour becomes more and more holy.

I really think it is error to say we make ourselves holy. That is HOLY BEHAVIOUR, not holiness in and of itself. Does everyone realize HOLINESS simply means BELONGING TO GOD?

[Joelel]

Holiness is when it's perfected.How do we perfect holiness ? By us cleansing ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit.

2Cor.7
[1] Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

This is holiness.

Eph.5:3: But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;4: Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.5: For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God
Gal.5:19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God

24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts

1 Cor.6:9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,(Homosexuals)10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God

1 John3:3: And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.5: And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.6: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him

1 John3:7: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

Gal.4:19: My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you
1Peter1:22: Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23: Being born again, not of corruptible seed,(word) but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever

Eph.5:25: Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;26: That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,27: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish

1 John2:5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6: He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Aside from what I believe is a distortion of "I die daily" (which was actually talking about physical threats to Paul's life and not denying self by spiritually dying, since we died ONCE with Christ already), here are my thoughts on your post.

Interesting. I'll have to study that. Just going over that particular passage it seems you could take that both ways. Thanks for the "food for thought".

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Rev

Mostly but not totally. We cannot make our selves holy as you said, but after we become holy through Christ we can make ourselves transgressors again.

(Jas 2:9) But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

(II Pe 2:20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(II Pe 2:21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
(II Pe 2:22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

(Gal 2:17) But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
(Gal 2:18) For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Well, in this we are in agreement. I don't believe in "once saved; always saved." We are chosen by God for a purpose - similar to the way He chose the seed of Abraham in the Old Testament.

We are seperated, or made "holy" by this selection process. If however we choose to go back to the leeks and onions in Egypt, then we forfeit our inheritance and we are no longer under that covenant of promise that God had introduced when He first chose to deliver us.

You just don't want to agree with me; but I know that you really do. Stop fighting the urge. You and me would make a great team!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Joelel

Holiness is when it's perfected.How do we perfect holiness ? By us cleansing ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit.

Holiness has to already exist before it is perfected. You cannot perfect something that does not exist.

Being holy and PERFECTING holiness are two different things. PERFECTING it is allowing it to manifest in our behaviour. That is actually my whole point. We HAVE it now, but must PERFECT it by seeing it in our behaviour.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Interesting. I'll have to study that. Just going over that particular passage it seems you could take that both ways. Thanks for the "food for thought".

The bible always teaches we died ONCE to sin. And watch this:

1 Corinthians 15:29-32 KJV (29) Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? (30) And ...

why stand we in jeopardy every hour?(NOTICE THIS IDEA OF BEING IN JEOPARDY IS MENTIONED - THREATS TO HIS LIFE FOR MINISTERING)

(31) I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord,...

I die daily.

(32) If after the manner of men ...

I have fought with beasts at Ephesus (ANOTHER REFERENCE TO PHYSICAL THREATS OF HIS LIFE) ,

what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

Sandwiched between two references to physical threats to his life, we read I DIE DAILY. This is because that is what he meant by DYING daily.

Scholars agree:

Adam Clarke:

I die daily - A form of speech for, I am continually exposed to death. The following passages will illustrate this. So Philo, p. 990. Flaccus, who was in continual fear of death, says: καθ’ ἑκαστην ἡμεραν, μαλλον δε ὡραν, προαποθνησκω, πολλους θανατους ὑπομενων ανθ’ ἑνος του τελευταιου· “Every day, rather every hour, I anticipate death; enduring many deaths before that last one comes.”

Albert Barnes:

I die daily - compare Rom_8:36. I endure so many sufferings and persecutions, that it may be said to be a daily dying. I am constantly in danger of my life; and my sufferings each day are equal to the pains of death. Probably Paul here referred particularly to the perils and trials which he then endured at Ephesus; and his object was to impress their minds with the firmness of his belief in the certainty of the resurrection, on account of which he suffered so much, and to show them that all their hopes rested also on this doctrine.

John Gill/

I die daily; which is to be understood, not in a spiritual sense of dying unto sin; he was dead unto sin, as to its damning power, through the death of Christ, and as to its governing power, through the Spirit and grace of Christ, but still it was living and dwelling in him; but in a corporeal sense: he instances in himself in particular, who was one that was in jeopardy or danger of his life every hour; he always bore in his body the dying of the Lord Jesus, and was continually delivered to death for Jesus' sake; death was always working in him, he expected it every day, and was ready for it; he did not count his life dear unto himself, but was very willing to lay it down for the sake of Christ and his Gospel; which he would never have done, if he had not good reason to believe the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead.

This is exactly the sort of language Paul used when he referred to other threats to his physical life:

2 Corinthians 4:8-11 KJV (8) We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; (9) Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; (10) Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. (11) For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

But we died ONCE to sin:

Romans 6:10-11 KJV For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. (11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We do not die daily to sin. We DENY SELF daily, but do not DIE daily.

We died ONCE with Christ. The reason Christ died ONCE was because it is appointed to us to die ONCE.

Hebrews 9:27 KJV And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Why would Christ die ONCE because we have to die once? It is because His death counts as our's so we can say we already paid the price of the single death that was required due to our sin!

Personally, I do not believe it can be taken both ways, because everytime we read about how many deaths we need to experience, it always says ONE.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The bible always teaches we died ONCE to sin. And watch this:



Sandwiched between two reference to physical threats to his life, we read I DIE DAILY.

This is exactly the sort of language Paul used when he referred to other threats to his phyiscal life:



But we died ONCE to sin:



We do not die daily to sin. We DENY SELF daily, but do not DIE daily.

We died ONCE with Christ. The reason Christ died ONCE was because it is appointed to us to die ONCE.



Why would Christ die ONCE because we have to die once? It is because His death counts as our's so we can say we already paid the price of the single death that was required due to our sin!

Personally, I do not believe it can be taken both ways, because everytime we read about how many deaths we need to experience, it always says ONE.

I am thinking of Romans 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Mortify means to kill, to become dead.

And also Colossians 3:5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

In a sense, it appears, that "death" is attributed to perfecting and consecration of our spiritual life.

Just my thoughts.

[Rev]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Well, in this we are in agreement. I don't believe in "once saved; always saved." We are chosen by God for a purpose - similar to the way He chose the seed of Abraham in the Old Testament.

We are seperated, or made "holy" by this selection process. If however we choose to go back to the leeks and onions in Egypt, then we forfeit our inheritance and we are no longer under that covenant of promise that God had introduced when He first chose to deliver us.

You just don't want to agree with me; but I know that you really do. Stop fighting the urge. You and me would make a great team!

Well if you agree with me then I'm going to agree with you!

A team of what?