Tolerance or Compromise

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84

Maybe not, but Paul urges people like me (who disagree with the rules) to deal with people like you (who are weak in the faith)

maybe its time that the rulekeepers stopped babying themselves and grew up, ya know?

First; it is very obvious you don't know me.

Second; Do you have any sort of restrictions in your own life? Perhaps you don't smoke or limit yourself to one glass of wine? Or perhap you draw the line at bikini speedos in the sancturary?

I may be wrong -of course, but I still tend to think those who have left the UPC corporately represent a less modest appearance than those who have not left. I did not even say if that is good or bad - just a thought.

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

First; it is very obvious you don't know me.

Second; Do you have any sort of restrictions in your own life? Perhaps you don't smoke or limit yourself to one glass of wine? Or perhap you draw the line at bikini speedos in the sancturary?

I may be wrong -of course, but I still tend to think those who have left the UPC corporately represent a less modest appearance than those who have not left. I did not even say if that is good or bad - just a thought.

I meant emperical you, not a personal one... lol

and I have limits that I have set for myself, but setting limits for yourself is not what Paul was talking against, He said that the Jews were weak because they set limits for EVERYONE... Having your own personal limits is smart...

And of course those who left the UPC are less modest on the whole, you have to include those who 100% backslid in the group the way you stated it... Plus the ones who haven't left are in bondage to a bunch of rules that aren't necessary keeping them weak as Christians (even if they might be a bit more modest)...

The issue you run into is the question of if those who left and are still following God are still living modest lives or not, if they are, it doesn't matter who is "more modest"...

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Pianoman

Most accurate post on this thread! We can argue until we turn blue, but when the dust settles, it comes down to your quote!

Why thank you Mr. Pianoman.

I'm smiling at the new "family crest".

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84

I meant emperical you, not a personal one... lol

and I have limits that I have set for myself, but setting limits for yourself is not what Paul was talking against, He said that the Jews were weak because they set limits for EVERYONE... Having your own personal limits is smart...

And of course those who left the UPC are less modest on the whole, you have to include those who 100% backslid in the group the way you stated it... Plus the ones who haven't left are in bondage to a bunch of rules that aren't necessary keeping them weak as Christians (even if they might be a bit more modest)...

The issue you run into is the question of if those who left and are still following God are still living modest lives or not, if they are, it doesn't matter who is "more modest"...

Not hardly worth responding since i mostly agree.

Note: Many I know in the UPC do not at all fit the accusation made against the Jews...

We are again saddled with the dilemma of judging the modesty of others... We all do this - even if we don't express it, and I don't mean judging to heaven or hell.

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Not hardly worth responding since i mostly agree.

Note: Many I know in the UPC do not at all fit the accusation made against the Jews...

We are again saddled with the dilemma of judging the modesty of others... We all do this - even if we don't express it, and I don't mean judging to heaven or hell.

how do they not? The Jews were weaker because they made rules for everything... some of thier rules were good things, yes, some were even upheld as for everyone at the Council of Jerusalem...

but Paul called them weak for having the rules and not having using freedom in Christ...

the UPC rules absolutely fall under the same heading as what the Jews had... Not because they are bad (the Jews' law wasn't bad, it was directly from God) but because it takes away each individuals ability to commune with God and decide what is right for themselves... It makes them weaker, dependant upon the choices of a man rather than the true choices of God...

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84

how do they not? The Jews were weaker because they made rules for everything... some of thier rules were good things, yes, some were even upheld as for everyone at the Council of Jerusalem...

but Paul called them weak for having the rules and not having using freedom in Christ...

the UPC rules absolutely fall under the same heading as what the Jews had... Not because they are bad (the Jews' law wasn't bad, it was directly from God) but because it takes away each individuals ability to commune with God and decide what is right for themselves... It makes them weaker, dependant upon the choices of a man rather than the true choices of God...

I'll give you one quick example. I attend a UPC and I am not sure that I have EVER felt it took away my ability to commune with God and decide what is right for myself.

Your point is well taken, but it is difficult for you to make it with a broad brush.

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

I'll give you one quick example. I attend a UPC and I am not sure that I have EVER felt it took away my ability to commune with God and decide what is right for myself.

Your point is well taken, but it is difficult for you to make it with a broad brush.

yeah, broad brushes generally don't work... but at the same time Paul used a pretty broad brush when he said those who still followed the law (see our rules against women's pants, tattoos, piercings, and tons of other things) were weaker Christians than those who didn't...

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84

how do they not? The Jews were weaker because they made rules for everything... some of thier rules were good things, yes, some were even upheld as for everyone at the Council of Jerusalem...

but Paul called them weak for having the rules and not having using freedom in Christ...

the UPC rules absolutely fall under the same heading as what the Jews had... Not because they are bad (the Jews' law wasn't bad, it was directly from God) but because it takes away each individuals ability to commune with God and decide what is right for themselves... It makes them weaker, dependant upon the choices of a man rather than the true choices of God...

I would say that if you truly believe that the weaker saint are those that preach standards, then you should follow Pauls teaching, and follow the standards less you become a stubbling block for those weaker vessels.

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I would say that if you truly believe that the weaker saint are those that preach standards, then you should follow Pauls teaching, and follow the standards less you become a stubbling block for those weaker vessels.

but that isn't what Paul said, now is it?

Paul said not to rub it in thier faces that you don't follow it... He NEVER told the stronger saints to conform to every whim of the weaker saints...

[stmatthew]

He plainly said if eating meat offends my brother, then I will not eat meat.