We are attached to our various social groupings in a variety of ways. We will often choose to leave one of those groups when it is no longer in our best interest to remain.
Many people remain in Pentecostal churches (or whatever church they attend) long after they have broken their philosophical attachments because remaining in the church is in the best interest of their family attachments.
Others simply have no choice except to remain because they are under age or - as I've seen at times - because they have an employment within the church body that they are reluctant to lose.
For myself, I had an employment, a position with some status, and a family network within Pentecost. But when I refused to "backslide" along with a few of those around me I lost my job, my position - which I was willing to accept, but then they turned at my family to continue and even intensify their attacks against them. This really disgusted me to the point that I had no fight left in me and I left.
I am somewhat disappointed with myself today, many years later. I have found out how that I had let down many other people who were still in the church and I handicapped the district leadership in the ability to govern affairs that they were charged with overseeing. I should have stayed and fought.
However, simultaneously to all of this; I was wrestling with the core belief system of the group. Jesse Williams, a man I had admired, had said something at about that time. He has said, "If you no longer believe the doctrine, then be a gentleman and leave." So for me at the time, the 'easy way out' was to "be a gentleman" and that made my departure a little easier.
The speaking schedules that I was tasked with arranging were now in the hands of men wanting to cover up the adultries of their Okalahoma buddies. Those Oklahoma buddies were given time to make the financial arrangements so that their pending divorces and loss of pastorates would not be as expensive as it would have been if I had spoken up.
Somehow, these guys were the "faithful" while I was the "Ex-Pentecostal..."
I'm still against pandering to adulterers and using church resources to enable what amounts to essentially a sex club. But this view makes me an "Ex-Pentecostal..."
I'm against "moving money around" to defraud the wife you've abandoned and I have some serious question about whose money that might have been - the church's? I don't know. All I know was that 13 weeks were required to make all of the arrangements after the wife found out. I was fired during the second week when I began to figure things out. The reason I was fired was because I was "hindering revival."
There folks who may be reading this now who will remember a storied 13 week revival. I saw many of you dancing in those services. I didn't dance. Because you did dance, you are Pentecostals. Because I could not bring myself to dance, I am an "Ex Pentecostal."
That's the way it happened for me.
Pel, you have quite the story. I know it is still hurtful to you. I am glad you can talk about it objectively.
How do you find yourself relating to the Pentecostal Church today? Have you managed to regain some or any of the former respect you had for the church and it's leaders?
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
Pel, you have quite the story. I know it is still hurtful to you. I am glad you can talk about it objectively.
How do you find yourself relating to the Pentecostal Church today? Have you managed to regain some or any of the former respect you had for the church and it's leaders?
I have tremendous respect for the "official" leadership. I knew many of these men and worked with them for years. As I said, I let them down in many ways by remaining silent and just shuffling off the scene.
One of the reasons I remained silent was because the doctrinal questions I had made me feel isolated from them. Another reason was - and this is where I really dropped the ball - I tended to lump everyone in leadership into a "them" category and I failed to see them as individual Christians attempting to do some difficult jobs.
For a few years "after" I just did my best to lay low and stay away. As it was, things turned out in such a way that I was entirely vindicated and my persecutors are no all mostly gone - and a couple have even been "converted" to seeing things from my view; except where their own wrong doings were involved. They still attempt to justify themselves rather than seek justification in Jesus Christ.
I am on very good terms with most of the local district board. There's one fellow, an old friend, who still doesn't acknowledge my existence. He was never even close to what went on before and probably has no idea about the details. He's just one of those WPF types whose wires fry whenever they're confronted with something outside their comfy little paradigms.
I don't attend any church regularly though my wife and kids do and we support it financially. My work schedule is chaotic and involves a lot of afterhours and weekend work. That, plus the fact that the answers I give to questions are not the things a lot of people want to hear in the UPC means that it's probably best that I lay low.
I bear no grudge against the UPC itself or its leaders. I have important concerns about the social conditions in many places and the way that the gospel is presented and sometimes even misrepresented. The UPC was my whole life for most of my life. But because of the way it's built - the whole church crumbled around me when an Oklahoma preacher showed up wanting something from his secretary that his wife refused to give him.
Why is the UPC (and the Apostolic movement in general) designed to mess up my life in so many important ways just because someone of greater importance than me wanted kinky sex? Why was any of that even any of my business?
The answer is: Because that's the way we're designed to interact. We have such a preoccupation with the bedrooms of others that a few have a preoccupation with making their bedrooms important throughout the movement. This part still grosses me out.
I have tremendous respect for the "official" leadership. I knew many of these men and worked with them for years. As I said, I let them down in many ways by remaining silent and just shuffling off the scene.
One of the reasons I remained silent was because the doctrinal questions I had made me feel isolated from them. Another reason was - and this is where I really dropped the ball - I tended to lump everyone in leadership into a "them" category and I failed to see them as individual Christians attempting to do some difficult jobs.
For a few years "after" I just did my best to lay low and stay away. As it was, things turned out in such a way that I was entirely vindicated and my persecutors are no all mostly gone - and a couple have even been "converted" to seeing things from my view; except where their own wrong doings were involved. They still attempt to justify themselves rather than seek justification in Jesus Christ.
I am on very good terms with most of the local district board. There's one fellow, an old friend, who still doesn't acknowledge my existence. He was never even close to what went on before and probably has no idea about the details. He's just one of those WPF types whose wires fry whenever they're confronted with something outside their comfy little paradigms.
I don't attend any church regularly though my wife and kids do and we support it financially. My work schedule is chaotic and involves a lot of afterhours and weekend work. That, plus the fact that the answers I give to questions are not the things a lot of people want to hear in the UPC means that it's probably best that I lay low.
I bear no grudge against the UPC itself or its leaders. I have important concerns about the social conditions in many places and the way that the gospel is presented and sometimes even misrepresented. The UPC was my whole life for most of my life. But because of the way it's built - the whole church crumbled around me when an Oklahoma preacher showed up wanting something from his secretary that his wife refused to give him.
Why is the UPC (and the Apostolic movement in general) designed to mess up my life in so many important ways just because someone of greater importance than me wanted kinky sex? Why was any of that even any of my business?
The answer is: Because that's the way we're designed to interact. We have such a preoccupation with the bedrooms of others that a few have a preoccupation with making their bedrooms important throughout the movement. This part still grosses me out.
Thank you for the reply.
Perhaps I am naive, but I really don't understand this bolded part.
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
I have tremendous respect for the "official" leadership. I knew many of these men and worked with them for years. As I said, I let them down in many ways by remaining silent and just shuffling off the scene.
One of the reasons I remained silent was because the doctrinal questions I had made me feel isolated from them. Another reason was - and this is where I really dropped the ball - I tended to lump everyone in leadership into a "them" category and I failed to see them as individual Christians attempting to do some difficult jobs.
For a few years "after" I just did my best to lay low and stay away. As it was, things turned out in such a way that I was entirely vindicated and my persecutors are no all mostly gone - and a couple have even been "converted" to seeing things from my view; except where their own wrong doings were involved. They still attempt to justify themselves rather than seek justification in Jesus Christ.
I am on very good terms with most of the local district board. There's one fellow, an old friend, who still doesn't acknowledge my existence. He was never even close to what went on before and probably has no idea about the details. He's just one of those WPF types whose wires fry whenever they're confronted with something outside their comfy little paradigms.
I don't attend any church regularly though my wife and kids do and we support it financially. My work schedule is chaotic and involves a lot of afterhours and weekend work. That, plus the fact that the answers I give to questions are not the things a lot of people want to hear in the UPC means that it's probably best that I lay low.
I bear no grudge against the UPC itself or its leaders. I have important concerns about the social conditions in many places and the way that the gospel is presented and sometimes even misrepresented. The UPC was my whole life for most of my life. But because of the way it's built - the whole church crumbled around me when an Oklahoma preacher showed up wanting something from his secretary that his wife refused to give him.
Why is the UPC (and the Apostolic movement in general) designed to mess up my life in so many important ways just because someone of greater importance than me wanted kinky sex? Why was any of that even any of my business?
The answer is: Because that's the way we're designed to interact. We have such a preoccupation with the bedrooms of others that a few have a preoccupation with making their bedrooms important throughout the movement. This part still grosses me out.
i am sorry that this is happening in the church today, it has been happening for years, no one would come out and fix it, i remember some people having sex in the music room and they were not even married, the man was but the woman wasnt, i do not understand that they could get on the platform and sing for the church, it makes me want to puk, and it was the womans sister . but i have to say that whatever happens in a church we really should move on because we will be lost if we do not get back to where we were, find a different church, but stay in the truth, and remember we are all human that have come short of the glory of God, by his grace that is not us doing that, we can fall in to temptation too,
but we are in the end times and it is going to get worse, so be ready cause here it comes. it is reality, but when it happens in a church and not a jobsite it can be different because it is church, how are we suppose to witness when this is going on in a church, makes me sick, there has to be alot of praying and fasting, thats the key,
__________________
JESUS--MESSIAH--LORD ABOVE ALL NAMES
BLESSED REDEEMER---EMANUEL
I have tremendous respect for the "official" leadership. I knew many of these men and worked with them for years. As I said, I let them down in many ways by remaining silent and just shuffling off the scene.
One of the reasons I remained silent was because the doctrinal questions I had made me feel isolated from them. Another reason was - and this is where I really dropped the ball - I tended to lump everyone in leadership into a "them" category and I failed to see them as individual Christians attempting to do some difficult jobs.
For a few years "after" I just did my best to lay low and stay away. As it was, things turned out in such a way that I was entirely vindicated and my persecutors are no all mostly gone - and a couple have even been "converted" to seeing things from my view; except where their own wrong doings were involved. They still attempt to justify themselves rather than seek justification in Jesus Christ.
I am on very good terms with most of the local district board. There's one fellow, an old friend, who still doesn't acknowledge my existence. He was never even close to what went on before and probably has no idea about the details. He's just one of those WPF types whose wires fry whenever they're confronted with something outside their comfy little paradigms.
I don't attend any church regularly though my wife and kids do and we support it financially. My work schedule is chaotic and involves a lot of afterhours and weekend work. That, plus the fact that the answers I give to questions are not the things a lot of people want to hear in the UPC means that it's probably best that I lay low.
I bear no grudge against the UPC itself or its leaders. I have important concerns about the social conditions in many places and the way that the gospel is presented and sometimes even misrepresented. The UPC was my whole life for most of my life. But because of the way it's built - the whole church crumbled around me when an Oklahoma preacher showed up wanting something from his secretary that his wife refused to give him.
Why is the UPC (and the Apostolic movement in general) designed to mess up my life in so many important ways just because someone of greater importance than me wanted kinky sex? Why was any of that even any of my business?
The answer is: Because that's the way we're designed to interact. We have such a preoccupation with the bedrooms of others that a few have a preoccupation with making their bedrooms important throughout the movement. This part still grosses me out.
Sheeesh, I bet I'd be suprised about what's going on.
We are attached to our various social groupings in a variety of ways. We will often choose to leave one of those groups when it is no longer in our best interest to remain.
Many people remain in Pentecostal churches (or whatever church they attend) long after they have broken their philosophical attachments because remaining in the church is in the best interest of their family attachments.
Others simply have no choice except to remain because they are under age or - as I've seen at times - because they have an employment within the church body that they are reluctant to lose.
For myself, I had an employment, a position with some status, and a family network within Pentecost. But when I refused to "backslide" along with a few of those around me I lost my job, my position - which I was willing to accept, but then they turned at my family to continue and even intensify their attacks against them. This really disgusted me to the point that I had no fight left in me and I left.
I am somewhat disappointed with myself today, many years later. I have found out how that I had let down many other people who were still in the church and I handicapped the district leadership in the ability to govern affairs that they were charged with overseeing. I should have stayed and fought.
However, simultaneously to all of this; I was wrestling with the core belief system of the group. Jesse Williams, a man I had admired, had said something at about that time. He has said, "If you no longer believe the doctrine, then be a gentleman and leave." So for me at the time, the 'easy way out' was to "be a gentleman" and that made my departure a little easier.
The speaking schedules that I was tasked with arranging were now in the hands of men wanting to cover up the adultries of their Okalahoma buddies. Those Oklahoma buddies were given time to make the financial arrangements so that their pending divorces and loss of pastorates would not be as expensive as it would have been if I had spoken up.
Somehow, these guys were the "faithful" while I was the "Ex-Pentecostal..."
I'm still against pandering to adulterers and using church resources to enable what amounts to essentially a sex club. But this view makes me an "Ex-Pentecostal..."
I'm against "moving money around" to defraud the wife you've abandoned and I have some serious question about whose money that might have been - the church's? I don't know. All I know was that 13 weeks were required to make all of the arrangements after the wife found out. I was fired during the second week when I began to figure things out. The reason I was fired was because I was "hindering revival."
There are folks who may be reading this now who will remember a storied 13 week revival. I saw many of you dancing in those services. I didn't dance. Because you did dance, you are Pentecostals. Because I could not bring myself to dance, I am an "Ex Pentecostal."
That's the way it happened for me.
Your allowed to dance now. ;-) I appreciate ya Pel.
I remember my downward slide beginning (or was it the first light going off?) when I overheard my then pastor tell someone else "and they show someone wearing shorts going in the rapture!" -talking about an end time movie being played at the church where someone wearing shorts was... well, you know.
The ludicrousness of someone making a salvation statement about someone who wasn't following the dress code of that church stood out.
The second big light to go off in my head came after hearing a number of men debate "oneness" issues and their understanding of it. Even if I knew what I knew before, I didn't after listening to these guys! They made it virtually impossible to understand oneness, and yet claimed at the same time that if you didn't understand it like they did, that you were lost.
And the last major big light to go off was comparing the fruits of other Christians to those who I knew to be Pentecostals (UPC) at the time. The bible says you will know them by their fruits. What are the fruits? Love, compassion, long suffering, etc. I was seeing little old catholic nuns showing FAR more fruits then many starch-shirt, stiff collared, pentecostal poof wearing, TV gaze averting, UPCers.
Then I started seeing alllllllll the versus speaking of grace, mercy, faith, and love that I knew were there, but never spent any time on since everything was always steamrolled right to Acts 2:38.
I remember my downward slide beginning (or was it the first light going off?) when I overheard my then pastor tell someone else "and they show someone wearing shorts going in the rapture!" -talking about an end time movie being played at the church where someone wearing shorts was... well, you know.
The ludicrousness of someone making a salvation statement about someone who wasn't following the dress code of that church stood out.
The second big light to go off in my head came after hearing a number of men debate "oneness" issues and their understanding of it. Even if I knew what I knew before, I didn't after listening to these guys! They made it virtually impossible to understand oneness, and yet claimed at the same time that if you didn't understand it like they did, that you were lost.
And the last major big light to go off was comparing the fruits of other Christians to those who I knew to be Pentecostals (UPC) at the time. The bible says you will know them by their fruits. What are the fruits? Love, compassion, long suffering, etc. I was seeing little old catholic nuns showing FAR more fruits then many starch-shirt, stiff collared, pentecostal poof wearing, TV gaze averting, UPCers.
Then I started seeing alllllllll the versus speaking of grace, mercy, faith, and love that I knew were there, but never spent any time on since everything was always steamrolled right to Acts 2:38.
Randy ya hit the nail on the head here. So many that are seeing things in a clearer light these days. started off much like you.
So much inconsistency in our core doctrines. Idealogys that are proped up with scripture that a first grader can see through.
when we claim to be so 100% right and we come up short on doctrine, it makes you question what else are we arong on?
__________________
God has lavished his love upon me.
I don't question Acts 2:38. I was baptized in Jesus name and received the Holy Ghost that evening.
But I haven't really attended church in years....I'd like to start again. The Apostolic church I went to believed in confessing all sins to the Pastor. It seemed really legalstic....maybe I'm wrong. I ended up feeling damned and didn't so much as read the bible for quite a few years.
I've been studying a lot the last few years but still have many questions. The Godhead is a tough one...deep down I feel I'm Oneness. But It's a big Idea to try to comprehend. I'm still not living the Life I should be.
First thing I'd suggest is to start looking for an Apostolic church to fellowship with. Be prayerful, and go to a few if you feel you have to, and let God lead to to one you feel comfortable in.
__________________ http://endtimeobserver.blogspot.com
Daniel 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever.
Hybrid Mode
